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Amother
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 Posted: Mon, Jun 25 2012, 6:23 am Post subject: Re: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pre |
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| m in Israel wrote: |
This seems to be quite a jump of logic -- that someone who wants to keep certain details of their life private is "withholding a relationship"???? I'm sorry, but to me insisting that in order to have a relationship with you someone must share all the details of their life does strike me as entitled and selfish. I have had many close relationships with friends, and I always believed that part of a relationship is respecting the boundaries that make others comfortable. |
Telling your family that you are pregnant because they cannot see you, when random strangers on the street know this information about you, is not sharing all the details of your life. It is sharing a very major, obvious, life changing fact.
| Quote: | | I had a close friend at one point whose mother was extremely ill. I was very careful never to ask probing questions, and I wasn't offended if sometimes I heard updates at tehilim groups and the like that I never heard directly from her. It didn't occur to me that prying into her business is simply a sign of "wanting a relationship". I knew that she considered me one of her closest friends at that point -- and I understood that different people have different levels of comfort with regard to sharing life details. I don't think her reticence to discuss the situation prevented her from having a "large network of support" either. B"H their are many people who are selfless enough to move past their own egos of "why am I not getting first hand information" to be willing to be supportive even without the inside gossip. |
Having close friends who unfortunately went through terrible things, I would argue that she wasn't a close friend. Maybe a friend, but not a close friend. To me, close friend means that you share the ups and downs of your life, and my close friends are the ones who have shared theirs with me and vice versa. ESPECIALLY when it comes to something horrible, your friends end up being divided into the ones that go through it with you and the ones that don't, and it becomes a very major line. Usually people who go through trying times need people to step up and get past their own egos and discomfort and feelings that they might be overstepping and BE PRESENT for their friends. So maybe you weren't really a good friend at all, even though you can pat yourself on the back for being so selfless and standing back and doing little actions while your "close friend" was suffering. I wonder what your friend would say.
Not that I think this is at all relevant to the topic at hand, since pregnancy is a run of the mill occurrence for the majority of people.. You just hit a nerve.
| Quote: | | BTW, the OP's situation is completely different, and I agree with her. If someone is telling some people and not others, then obviously it does send a certain message as far as who was chosen to hear the information. But if someone chooses simply not to share with anyone, or with anyone beyond very close family, I don't see that as destroying a relationship. |
I'm not arguing tell everyone. I'm arguing that you tell siblings. There are people who really dont tell their sisters they are pregnant?!?!
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| m in Israel |
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| Posted: Mon, Jun 25 2012, 6:49 am Post subject: Re: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pre |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | | I had a close friend at one point whose mother was extremely ill. I was very careful never to ask probing questions, and I wasn't offended if sometimes I heard updates at tehilim groups and the like that I never heard directly from her. It didn't occur to me that prying into her business is simply a sign of "wanting a relationship". I knew that she considered me one of her closest friends at that point -- and I understood that different people have different levels of comfort with regard to sharing life details. I don't think her reticence to discuss the situation prevented her from having a "large network of support" either. B"H their are many people who are selfless enough to move past their own egos of "why am I not getting first hand information" to be willing to be supportive even without the inside gossip. |
Having close friends who unfortunately went through terrible things, I would argue that she wasn't a close friend. Maybe a friend, but not a close friend. To me, close friend means that you share the ups and downs of your life, and my close friends are the ones who have shared theirs with me and vice versa. ESPECIALLY when it comes to something horrible, your friends end up being divided into the ones that go through it with you and the ones that don't, and it becomes a very major line. Usually people who go through trying times need people to step up and get past their own egos and discomfort and feelings that they might be overstepping and BE PRESENT for their friends. So maybe you weren't really a good friend at all, even though you can pat yourself on the back for being so selfless and standing back and doing little actions while your "close friend" was suffering. I wonder what your friend would say.
Not that I think this is at all relevant to the topic at hand, since pregnancy is a run of the mill occurrence for the majority of people.. You just hit a nerve. |
I am sorry that I hit a nerve, but my point is that everyone deals with their privacy in different ways. I happen to know what my friend thought, because I got a call during the shiva (her mother was eventually nifteres) from her SIL (who was extremely close to her, but whom I didn't have much to do with) to thank me for being one of the two friends who really pulled her SIL through the past 2 years. I know she considered me one of her 2 closest friends during that time. I also made sure to "be present" for her -- but on her terms, not mine. So when she wanted to talk about something, she knew I was available -- and when she went through weeks where she did not want to discuss what was doing, she knew I wasn't offended when she didn't call me with updates.
I'll be honest -- it wasn't always easy. It was the most awkward when other people would start asking me for information, assuming I knew it because I was her good friend. This is often where ego often comes into the equation. Some people have mentioned earlier on this thread feeling "embarrassed" when other people referred to something that they assumed they would know and they didn't. I relate to that feeling -- it is sometimes "embarrassing" to not know things others assume you know. But to me that is not justification to judge a friendship based on the friend's willingness to share personal information. I do believe that a big part of a friendship is sharing information and your personal life -- but it should be a back and forth where everyone is comfortable, not that you "have to share this" to avoid offending your "friend."
I'm not sure where you get the impression that allowing someone their privacy means you must "stand back and take little action". I was certainly taking whatever action was needed to support her -- from organizing babysitting for her kids when she had to be with her mother (and convincing her to accept the help!) to dealing with phone calls for her if she requested it. But I did this as a friend who cared about her and wanted to help whether or not I was "in the loop" with regard to sharing information. That is the crux of my point. The 2 posters I was responding to both implied that if you don't share information (in one case regarding the pregnancy and in the other regarding an engagement), you will be unable to have a support system/ send a message that you don't value a relationship. I am saying that a person can have supportive friends and value their relationships without needing to share information that they are uncomfortable sharing for whatever reason.
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| Posted: Mon, Jun 25 2012, 6:55 am Post subject: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pregnan |
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That's fine. You sound like a good friend. Stepping back sometimes when it is appropriate is NOT the same thing as never sharing anything at all. You cannot hold back everything and still expect to have a close relationship with someone. It might be your right, but it will alienate people who define closeness in other ways. In my case my sister in law obviously told her sisters, and it was more of a "you are in laws so you are less important" kind of thing and that's what hurt, especially since we had been super close with her husband. On second thought, maybe I should be angrier at him for not standing up to her and telling us and going along with everything she says even as it pulls him farther away from his own family.
And I am really, really sorry for your loss 
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| Posted: Mon, Jun 25 2012, 6:58 am Post subject: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pregnan |
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| To answer your other question though- just so people should know- my close friend who was dealing with rare illness lost a lot of friends because people were afraid to talk to her and be normal with her, they right away started pulling back and treating her like she was different and she felt so horrible and alienated, which is not what you want to feel when you are already going through a horrible and alienating thing. Sometimes people do need to get past their discomfort and be there for friends who really need help, even if they don't know exactly what to say or even if the friend seems someone resistant. Sometimes you have to push to be there for someone but I agree with you, that sometimes you can't push too much. It's a balance you have to figure out.
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| Posted: Mon, Jun 25 2012, 9:33 pm Post subject: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pregnan |
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Well _ you're not along....lots of folks can shake hands with you. But yes, it is insulting.
My MIL told me my sil was pregnant when she was in her seventh month and my SIL emailed me when she was in her eighth month.
Now that's a joke IMHO.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 26 2012, 2:29 am Post subject: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pregnan |
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| We do tell sibs around 4 mos or so. This past time one of my sil's asked my mom if I was pregnant because she saw a picture of me on facebook a few months later when I was already in maternity clothes. I felt terrible since I had told my brother, her DH and assumed he would pass along the info. Do people call each brother and sil separately? I was closer to this sil but now we live in different countries nd don't talk much
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 26 2012, 9:24 am Post subject: Re: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pre |
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| shabri wrote: | | We do tell sibs around 4 mos or so. This past time one of my sil's asked my mom if I was pregnant because she saw a picture of me on facebook a few months later when I was already in maternity clothes. I felt terrible since I had told my brother, her DH and assumed he would pass along the info. Do people call each brother and sil separately? I was closer to this sil but now we live in different countries nd don't talk much |
No. If you told one of the spouses, you do not have to tell the other. That's a communication lapse between them but you did your part.
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| Posted: Thu, Jun 28 2012, 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pre |
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| m in Israel wrote: | | amother wrote: | Wanting a relationship with someone is not entitled and selfish. [b]Withholding a relationship and making a statement that you don't really want to let someone into your life is selfish. [/b]
I have never met anyone admirable who maintains that pregnancy should be kept a secret from family. Only people with weird hangups that usually make those around them very uncomfortable.
Enjoy your bubble. Hope you never know what it's like to need a large network of support because you are the kind of person who is not capable of having one  |
This seems to be quite a jump of logic -- that someone who wants to keep certain details of their life private is "withholding a relationship"???? I'm sorry, but to me insisting that in order to have a relationship with you someone must share all the details of their life does strike me as entitled and selfish. I have had many close relationships with friends, and I always believed that part of a relationship is respecting the boundaries that make others comfortable.
I had a close friend at one point whose mother was extremely ill. I was very careful never to ask probing questions, and I wasn't offended if sometimes I heard updates at tehilim groups and the like that I never heard directly from her. It didn't occur to me that prying into her business is simply a sign of "wanting a relationship". I knew that she considered me one of her closest friends at that point -- and I understood that different people have different levels of comfort with regard to sharing life details. I don't think her reticence to discuss the situation prevented her from having a "large network of support" either. B"H their are many people who are selfless enough to move past their own egos of "why am I not getting first hand information" to be willing to be supportive even without the inside gossip.
BTW, the OP's situation is completely different, and I agree with her. If someone is telling some people and not others, then obviously it does send a certain message as far as who was chosen to hear the information. But if someone chooses simply not to share with anyone, or with anyone beyond very close family, I don't see that as destroying a relationship.
| amother wrote: | | To me, telling before putting on maternity is similar to telling others before you get engaged, but with even more time to share. Sure everyone has the RIGHT to keep things private. But it can and often does something to the relationship if you just pop up one fine day and tell a sibling or close friend you are engaged. I still feel awkward with a friend who I thought I was super close with and found out her engagement through a third party. And on the flip side, I feel much closer to those who included me in their dating and engagement before it happened. A pretty close friend of mine who I havent spoken to a few months recently emailed me that she was seriously seeing someone. I can't tell you how much that meant to me, that even though we hadnt been so in touch, she wanted to let me know before it happened. It made her subsequent engagement that much more meaningful and I went out of my way to get her a gift and stay for a long time at her vort, because I felt 'we are very close friends'. Sure, it still would have been exciting if I hadn;t known about it before. But I felt (and still feel) connected now, wanting to make her a shower, be involved in the process, etc. Instead of just popping in, wishing mazel tov and showing up again at the wedding. |
I did not tell anyone I was getting engaged -- not even my best friend. The only ones who knew were my parents. (And I actually do tell people that I am expecting!!! I find that to be less "private", because sooner or later anyone who sees you will know!) I guess I am lucky to have mature friends who didn't judge our relationship based on that, and still felt that it was a meaningful event. I had friends who wanted to "be involved in the process" despite finding out when everyone else did, instead of earlier.
My point is that everyone has different comfort levels and privacy concerns, and I do believe that protecting the privacy of one's home is a very Jewish value. If someone feels more comfortable with greater levels of privacy then me, I can understand and respect that without taking it personally and deciding it is a reflection of our relationship. (Again, assuming it is an across the board approach rather than telling everyone except me, which I agree is hurtful.) |
It has nothing to do with maturity. It is a natural cause and effect of relationships. You share the good and bad and ups and downs with people you are close to, its AUTOMATICALLY going to make you closer. You choose to keep important things private? Your call and your right and it doesn't mean the friendship isn't real. But there's no way you can be at the same level as a friend who you do share with (and vise versa). Its healthy and normal to want to share important things with the few you are close with. To me, its a drop odd and fake if you shmooze with a close friend every night for an hour and find out that weekend she is engaged. That means that whole week of shmoozing wasn't real. There was this MASSIVE thing going on in her life that she obviously was thinking about and wondering about when you were blabbing about your latest shopping trip.
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 9:49 am Post subject: Re: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pre |
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| m in Israel wrote: | | It was the most awkward when other people would start asking me for information, assuming I knew it because I was her good friend. This is often where ego often comes into the equation. Some people have mentioned earlier on this thread feeling "embarrassed" when other people referred to something that they assumed they would know and they didn't. I relate to that feeling -- it is sometimes "embarrassing" to not know things others assume you know. But to me that is not justification to judge a friendship based on the friend's willingness to share personal information. I do believe that a big part of a friendship is sharing information and your personal life -- but it should be a back and forth where everyone is comfortable, not that you "have to share this" to avoid offending your "friend." |
I relate to the feeling of embarassment but for a different reason.
I felt a bit embarassed when I found out from someone else that my cousin was pregnant because I had called her specifically to tell her I was pregnant. When I told her about my pregnancy, she would have been pregnant too (but not as far along as me so prob not sharing with others yet) so I would have thought she might call me when she was telling people. The fact that she didn't made me feel as if maybe she didn't consider that her pregnancy would be newsworthy to me so perhaps she saw me as attention seeking by sharing my news with her.
More than that though I was hurt because we are a big group of 6 girl cousins who grew up very close to one another. We told each other when we were dating, when we had job interviews, we ALWAYS saw each other on birthdays and also the birthdays of our kids. All 6 of us were close, but I was the only one she did not tell about the pregnancy. I don't feel entitled, I know she had a right to tell whoever she wants but I was hurt because it sent a message that she felt less close to me than to the others.
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 11:02 am Post subject: Re: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pre |
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| m in Israel wrote: | | Chocoholic wrote: | | black sheep wrote: |
what's not tznius about saying your pregnant? |
Because it means you had relations.
And relations, is not tznius.
 |
I've seen this type of reference on a few threads here, and always hoped it was a joke -- but I'll respond in case it wasn't.
The tznius factor in not telling has nothing to do with relations. It comes from the concept that tznius means not everything about your own private life is everyone else's (or anyone else's) business. Privacy about your own brachos is a very basic part of tznius -- as well as is privacy about what is going on in your home. This dates back to Bnei Yisroel in the Midbar and the brachos of Bilam!! Everyone doesn't need to know about the prize your kid won or the raise your husband got or what you are cooking for supper or if you are expecting!!
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this^^
and if not telling about a pg is not tzuis because of relations then we would all have to hide our children! 
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 11:09 am Post subject: Re: re: My SIL just had a baby and I didn't know she was pre |
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| Yakira wrote: | | m in Israel wrote: | | amother wrote: | Wanting a relationship with someone is not entitled and selfish. [b]Withholding a relationship and making a statement that you don't really want to let someone into your life is selfish. [/b]
I have never met anyone admirable who maintains that pregnancy should be kept a secret from family. Only people with weird hangups that usually make those around them very uncomfortable.
Enjoy your bubble. Hope you never know what it's like to need a large network of support because you are the kind of person who is not capable of having one |
This seems to be quite a jump of logic -- that someone who wants to keep certain details of their life private is "withholding a relationship"???? I'm sorry, but to me insisting that in order to have a relationship with you someone must share all the details of their life does strike me as entitled and selfish. I have had many close relationships with friends, and I always believed that part of a relationship is respecting the boundaries that make others comfortable.
I had a close friend at one point whose mother was extremely ill. I was very careful never to ask probing questions, and I wasn't offended if sometimes I heard updates at tehilim groups and the like that I never heard directly from her. It didn't occur to me that prying into her business is simply a sign of "wanting a relationship". I knew that she considered me one of her closest friends at that point -- and I understood that different people have different levels of comfort with regard to sharing life details. I don't think her reticence to discuss the situation prevented her from having a "large network of support" either. B"H their are many people who are selfless enough to move past their own egos of "why am I not getting first hand information" to be willing to be supportive even without the inside gossip.
BTW, the OP's situation is completely different, and I agree with her. If someone is telling some people and not others, then obviously it does send a certain message as far as who was chosen to hear the information. But if someone chooses simply not to share with anyone, or with anyone beyond very close family, I don't see that as destroying a relationship.
| amother wrote: | | To me, telling before putting on maternity is similar to telling others before you get engaged, but with even more time to share. Sure everyone has the RIGHT to keep things private. But it can and often does something to the relationship if you just pop up one fine day and tell a sibling or close friend you are engaged. I still feel awkward with a friend who I thought I was super close with and found out her engagement through a third party. And on the flip side, I feel much closer to those who included me in their dating and engagement before it happened. A pretty close friend of mine who I havent spoken to a few months recently emailed me that she was seriously seeing someone. I can't tell you how much that meant to me, that even though we hadnt been so in touch, she wanted to let me know before it happened. It made her subsequent engagement that much more meaningful and I went out of my way to get her a gift and stay for a long time at her vort, because I felt 'we are very close friends'. Sure, it still would have been exciting if I hadn;t known about it before. But I felt (and still feel) connected now, wanting to make her a shower, be involved in the process, etc. Instead of just popping in, wishing mazel tov and showing up again at the wedding. |
I did not tell anyone I was getting engaged -- not even my best friend. The only ones who knew were my parents. (And I actually do tell people that I am expecting!!! I find that to be less "private", because sooner or later anyone who sees you will know!) I guess I am lucky to have mature friends who didn't judge our relationship based on that, and still felt that it was a meaningful event. I had friends who wanted to "be involved in the process" despite finding out when everyone else did, instead of earlier.
My point is that everyone has different comfort levels and privacy concerns, and I do believe that protecting the privacy of one's home is a very Jewish value. If someone feels more comfortable with greater levels of privacy then me, I can understand and respect that without taking it personally and deciding it is a reflection of our relationship. (Again, assuming it is an across the board approach rather than telling everyone except me, which I agree is hurtful.) |
It has nothing to do with maturity. It is a natural cause and effect of relationships. You share the good and bad and ups and downs with people you are close to, its AUTOMATICALLY going to make you closer. You choose to keep important things private? Your call and your right and it doesn't mean the friendship isn't real. But there's no way you can be at the same level as a friend who you do share with (and vise versa). Its healthy and normal to want to share important things with the few you are close with. To me, its a drop odd and fake if you shmooze with a close friend every night for an hour and find out that weekend she is engaged. That means that whole week of shmoozing wasn't real. There was this MASSIVE thing going on in her life that she obviously was thinking about and wondering about when you were blabbing about your latest shopping trip. |
Agreed. I'm the amother you quoted, and this is exactly what I meant all along. I was just thinking today about an (actual) close friend who was going through a crisis, and at first she couldn't talk about it. But she let me know that she was going through something, but that she couldn't talk about it yet. And I didn't feel personally insulted and I didn't push her one bit, but at least I knew to be sensitive to her and let her know that I was there if she needed me and I also know that if she was acting weird that there was a reason for it, even if I didn't know what exactly what it was. So there is a way to have close friends even if you can't share everything, but I don't think someone is close friend if they don't know at least that there is something going on in your life. And since pregnancy isn't weird or rare or embarrassing, I don't know how someone could consider themselves close to someone who doesn't share that. But whatever.
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