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| HindaRochel |
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 Posted: Thu, Jun 28 2012, 3:25 am Post subject: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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Her husband should have helped her, not gone to look for a random person. A police officer, or doctor or even a vet would have been a choice, but not some random person regardless of profession - or sεx for that matter.
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| simchat |
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| Posted: Thu, Jun 28 2012, 9:51 pm Post subject: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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Lol! Thanks for the laughs Marina! (I particularly liked the part about `chestfeeding or other such inappropriateness` heeheehee). On the total opposite side, my DH was doing an an emt course while I was pregnant and kept saying things like `it would be so cool if you had the baby suddenly and I`d have to help deliver him...`   Ummm, cool?? I don`t think so, just get me to a hospital please! (Actually, I ended up delivering about 40 mins after getting to the hospital, I bet he really did daven for a fast labor! Ha!) Oh, also my DH drives an 18 wheeler truck, so my baby could`ve been delivered by a `dirty` truck driver too! 
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| StrongIma |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 12:06 am Post subject: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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my main contention with this situation is that I don't feel he should have even left her side at that point to find anyone at all. yes, he was a chossid shoteh - I would prefer to think not for ideological reasons but due to confusion and lack of knowledge.
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| zaq |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 12:55 am Post subject: Re: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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| mvp wrote: |
He would rather have some dirty truck driver gentile touch his exposed wife and new baby?
. |
Lovely way you express yourself. A real credit to you, your upbringing, and all of klal yisrael.Such ahavas habriyos, such hakaras hatov. (sarcasm alert.)
Now just put the shoe on the other foot, lady. Suppose this yungerman, who earns his living by delivering Yated to kosher stores in the mountains, had been flagged down by a frantic nonJewish man and asked to deliver his wife's baby. Now imagine that some lady on the Church Ladies forum opined "He would rather have some dirty truck driver Jew touch his exposed wife and new baby?" Would you or would you not be down that church lady;s throat for her disgusting, vicious, hateful stereotyping?
On behalf of truck drivers everywhere, I am deeply offended. Because a man drives a truck for a living, that makes him dirty? did you know that long-distance truckers have showers in the extended cabs of their trucks? And he's a gentile, so what? The man is a hero! He did what the woman's husband would not. he may or may not have saved the life of the mother and child, but what would you suggest? That the father wait till a van full of yeshiva bocherim passed by?
You make me sick.
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| black sheep |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 1:08 am Post subject: Re: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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| zaq wrote: | | mvp wrote: |
He would rather have some dirty truck driver gentile touch his exposed wife and new baby?
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Lovely way you express yourself. A real credit to you, your upbringing, and all of klal yisrael.Such ahavas habriyos, such hakaras hatov. (sarcasm alert.)
Now just put the shoe on the other foot, lady. Suppose this yungerman, who earns his living by delivering Yated to kosher stores in the mountains, had been flagged down by a frantic nonJewish man and asked to deliver his wife's baby. Now imagine that some lady on the Church Ladies forum opined "He would rather have some dirty truck driver Jew touch his exposed wife and new baby?" Would you or would you not be down that church lady;s throat for her disgusting, vicious, hateful stereotyping?
On behalf of truck drivers everywhere, I am deeply offended. Because a man drives a truck for a living, that makes him dirty? did you know that long-distance truckers have showers in the extended cabs of their trucks? And he's a gentile, so what? The man is a hero! He did what the woman's husband would not. he may or may not have saved the life of the mother and child, but what would you suggest? That the father wait till a van full of yeshiva bocherim passed by?
You make me sick. |
I doubt she meant the fact that he's a truck driver or a gentile makes him unworthy of delivering a baby. I have no hangups about truck drivers or non jews, yet my first thought at this story was, a random truck driver? did he wash his hands? not because he is a "dirty truck driver" but rather because driving a truck, while an honorable profession by many standards, is not condusive to the type of cleanliness required to deliver a baby. the shock here is why would this guy allow a random person, who is currently driving his truck (clearly not a doctor) deliver his wife's baby.
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| ora_43 |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 2:14 am Post subject: Re: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | No one is saying the article is about that.
We're just trying to present a different way of interpreting what happened, because the blurb did not say that he said he couldn't deliver his wife and had to find someone else. It was a separate, stand alone sentence that could easily have been added in on a whim as "look at this interesting halacha Jews have" and had nothing to do with him flagging down the driver.
We're not trying to explain the article as much as we are trying to explain that perhaps the guy isn't a chossid shoteh.
We don't know, that's all. |
And I agree with Hashem_Yaazor again.
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| zaq |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 8:36 am Post subject: Re: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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| black sheep wrote: | | zaq wrote: | | mvp wrote: |
He would rather have some dirty truck driver gentile touch his exposed wife and new baby?
. |
Lovely way you express yourself. A real credit to you, your upbringing, and all of klal yisrael.Such ahavas habriyos, such hakaras hatov. (sarcasm alert.)
Now just put the shoe on the other foot, lady. Suppose this yungerman, who earns his living by delivering Yated to kosher stores in the mountains, had been flagged down by a frantic nonJewish man and asked to deliver his wife's baby. Now imagine that some lady on the Church Ladies forum opined "He would rather have some dirty truck driver Jew touch his exposed wife and new baby?" Would you or would you not be down that church lady;s throat for her disgusting, vicious, hateful stereotyping?
On behalf of truck drivers everywhere, I am deeply offended. Because a man drives a truck for a living, that makes him dirty? did you know that long-distance truckers have showers in the extended cabs of their trucks? And he's a gentile, so what? The man is a hero! He did what the woman's husband would not. he may or may not have saved the life of the mother and child, but what would you suggest? That the father wait till a van full of yeshiva bocherim passed by?
You make me sick. |
I doubt she meant the fact that he's a truck driver or a gentile makes him unworthy of delivering a baby. I have no hangups about truck drivers or non jews, yet my first thought at this story was, a random truck driver? did he wash his hands? not because he is a "dirty truck driver" but rather because driving a truck, while an honorable profession by many standards, is not condusive to the type of cleanliness required to deliver a baby. the shock here is why would this guy allow a random person, who is currently driving his truck (clearly not a doctor) deliver his wife's baby. |
1. Why is everyone assuming the driver did not wash his hands, don gloves or apply hand sanitizer? Trucks usually have some sort of first aid kit aboard.
2. Why is everyone assuming the father or any other passing motorist would have washed his hands, donned gloves or used hand sanitizer? They are less likely than a trucker to have a first aid kit aboard.
3. What makes you think ANYONE other than emergency response professionals would have been able to wash their hands, don gloves or apply hand sanitizer? These people were on the road, not in their living room. Nothing on the road is "conducive to the type of cleanliness required to deliver a baby". Babies come when they want to, sometimes in cabs, sometimes in subway cars, sometimes on the sidewalk, and guess what? They survive! You do what you have to do.
Remember that mountain climber who amputated his own arm with a pocket knife when he was pinned under a boulder and realized he would die unless he could get out from under? You think he operated under conditions "conducive to the type of cleanliness required" to perform surgery? You think he washed his hands and sterilized his Swiss Army knife?
Nice try defending mvp, black sheep, but it won't wash. | mvp wrote: |
He would rather have some dirty truck driver gentile touch his exposed wife and new baby?
. |
Unless mvp made a typo and meant "guy" not "gentile", her post is the height of bigotry. If she meant "guy", I'll believe it when she edits her post to correct the typo, but her overall tone makes me doubt that this is the case.
Even if she meant "guy", the post is still derogatory and bigoted. A truck is not an operating theater. Neither is a passenger vehicle. The car was not necessarily any less germy than the truck. Check out the reports about how germy computer keyboards and kitchen sinks are before you go around ranking out trucks. Just because something LOOKS clean doesn't mean it's sanitary. The father was not necessarily any less germy than the driver. Do you really believe that a vanload of yeshiva bocherim would have been better? From what my sons tell me about the personal hygiene habits of their classmates, that's highly unlikely.
And the driver had a big, big, big yitaron over the father: he did deliver the baby. Period, end of sentence. He deserves to be given a medal, not to be spat upon by white-fingered ladies whose delicate sensibilities are offended by the idea of a frum mother and child's lives being saved by The Unclean.
As for the father, if he didn't know how to deliver a baby--and we have no reason to believe that he did--he was 100% right to enlist outside help. Even if he did know how, and even if he had intended to do so, he would still have been right to enlist outside help. It's hard to attend to both mother and child at the same time. Even obstetricians in their nice sterile delivery rooms and with all their medical equipment "condusive (sic) to the type of cleanliness required to deliver a baby" don't go it alone.
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| Hashem_Yaazor |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 9:16 am Post subject: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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I just wanted to mention something here...
Unless someone sticks their hands internally into the mother (which does not happen with a delivery like this), the mother is at no greater risk of infection no matter if the hands were washed.
The baby is susceptible to all germs, including his father's, having not developed immunity to it.
The main reason baby catchers glove their hands is for their OWN safety, so they won't contract infection when the mother's fluids come in contact with their hands.
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| mvp |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 9:41 am Post subject: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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I am not going to edit my post after people already commented on it. That is why I just explained myself in a later post.
I am very sorry it came out sounding so bigoted. I should have been more careful the way I expressed myself. I read the comment above mine, (how the father needed to protect himself form avera! He's holly Jew, so better have a gentile do this!) and it made me super upset, so I quickly wrote something without choosing my words as carefully as I should have.
So I will repeat again, I was talking from the point of view of the chossid. Picking a random truck driver to deliver your baby - ESPECIALLY if you are a chossid is one of the more ridiculous things he could of done.
I personally, never reffer to anyone as gentile. But I hear this way of talking all the time among chossidim, and certain groups of (people who think they are) ultra-religeouse non-chossidim. I am always the one to point out how nasty it is. Whenever I hear kids in my family talking like that - I tell them Hashem made non jews too, and he loves them too.
So nothing against truck drivers, or non jews!!!
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| OOTforlife |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 29 2012, 10:43 am Post subject: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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Anyone else seen this? I guess MO is not always so M...
http://torahmusings.com/2012/06/tow-truck-baby/
| Quote: | | I believe that the husband’s actions are justifiable halakhically and practically, although normative rulings would not require such extreme action. |
Personally, I think the author completely fails to address the time-sensitivity of the situation and the potential increased risk from (I) taking the time to flag a random person (ii) using a stranger who might be in any kind of mental and/or physical condition. As one commenter points out, this is not like asking someone to flip a light switch on Shabbos.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Sun, Jul 01 2012, 10:36 am Post subject: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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| OOTforlife: OR for that matter the fact that there is a difference between HIRING someone and flagging a random person down. I would think one would hire someone who can actually do the job.
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| PinkFridge |
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| Posted: Sun, Jul 01 2012, 9:26 pm Post subject: re: Hello I am a chossid shoteh. |
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Hey Zaq, sorry I'm not making use of the like button yet but I'm catching up on a few days, a taanis internet  while away, but you've been uniformly great so far in your perspectives.
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