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 Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 11:19 am Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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Or maybe it's that at least 1 baby a year in NY alone gets infected through this procedure and has nothing to do with homosexuality or pedophiles.....Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, folks.
And I gotta wonder what reality you are living in. "This part of the body isn't susceptible to infection like other parts...." Wishful thinking? I've got some lovely photos in a dermatology book I can show you to disabuse you of this notion.
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| Hashem_Yaazor |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 11:44 am Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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Chavamom, while there are people who are concerned for health reasons, we have also had posts on this board that implied it was wrong for (or that they were uncomfortable with) a mohel to do metzitzah b'peh because it resembles molestation.
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Last edited by Hashem_Yaazor on Fri, Jun 08 2012, 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 11:46 am Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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Like this:
"Personally I could deal with this, but I find it very hard to overcome the fact that the moyel will put his mouth "there" .... under whatever pretext. And then secondarily - the (small) risk of infection."
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| Merrymom |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 11:55 am Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| chavamom wrote: | Or maybe it's that at least 1 baby a year in NY alone gets infected through this procedure and has nothing to do with homosexuality or pedophiles.....Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, folks.
And I gotta wonder what reality you are living in. "This part of the body isn't susceptible to infection like other parts...." Wishful thinking? I've got some lovely photos in a dermatology book I can show you to disabuse you of this notion. |
I am not talking about hopital circumsion, that has higher rates of complications which is probably what your book shows. The rate of infection in a orthodox bris is extremely low. I can't remember the statistics exactly but they are available if you want to look into it.
I am not opposed to those who don't want to do metzizah b'peh. Rather I think this is a halachic disscusion and the board of health should have no say in the matter. They did try and the only reason why they didn't succeed is because the mayor of N.Y. got involved and basically got them to back off. They completely exaggerated the case and Rabbi Fisher it turns out didn't get anyone sick from what I understand. I am not opposed to licensing mohelim and requiring them to get tested on a monthly basis. If they are carriers of this virus they shouldn't be allowed to be a mohel at all. I for one am immune to this virus, I cannot get it if I kiss someone who has an active breakout. Should a mohel with similar immunity also be banned from this practice?
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| Ruchel |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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I can see why it's weird. I'm personally more weirded out by the idea of someone licking the blood. I personally didn't really mind one way or the way. We had a shabbes bris bh so we didn't have the mohel we had planned (JPF, Yekke, doctor) and had a chassidish, local mohel (still doctor). I assumed chassidish = bepeh. But dh told me he didn't (I wasn't close enough to see because I was a mess).
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| imamiri |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| Merrymom wrote: | | chavamom wrote: | Or maybe it's that at least 1 baby a year in NY alone gets infected through this procedure and has nothing to do with homosexuality or pedophiles.....Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, folks.
And I gotta wonder what reality you are living in. "This part of the body isn't susceptible to infection like other parts...." Wishful thinking? I've got some lovely photos in a dermatology book I can show you to disabuse you of this notion. |
I am not talking about hopital circumsion, that has higher rates of complications which is probably what your book shows. The rate of infection in a orthodox bris is extremely low. I can't remember the statistics exactly but they are available if you want to look into it.
I am not opposed to those who don't want to do metzizah b'peh. Rather I think this is a halachic disscusion and the board of health should have no say in the matter. They did try and the only reason why they didn't succeed is because the mayor of N.Y. got involved and basically got them to back off. They completely exaggerated the case and Rabbi Fisher it turns out didn't get anyone sick from what I understand. I am not opposed to licensing mohelim and requiring them to get tested on a monthly basis. If they are carriers of this virus they shouldn't be allowed to be a mohel at all. I for one am immune to this virus, I cannot get it if I kiss someone who has an active breakout. Should a mohel with similar immunity also be banned from this practice? |
No I think the Dept of Health should be part of the discussion too. One child contracting Herpes is one child too many. And clinging to this and wanting to cut out health authorities will only strengthen the anti-circ movement.
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:17 pm Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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The anti circ movement hates everything the circ represents.
I could develop but I think we all know that...
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| imeinu |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:21 pm Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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I think the main reason why Metitzah B'peh was not banned by NYC was actually because of the strong pushback from many Rabbonim.
Rabbi Yisroel Belsky actually told the HC at the time that if Metzizah Bpeh was banned then many jews would start doing Brissim in basements in secrecy just as they had to do it in Communist Russia. (pretty strong words).
They also attacked the medical aspect Rabbi Belsky himself is a mohel as well as extremley knowledgable in medical matters (he's one of those freak geniusis who knows everything literally. I once went with my DH to the Living Torah Museam in BP and the curator told me that he speaks over everything with Rabbi BElsky 'cause Rabbi Belsky actually reads and understands 11 ancient languages, A classmate of his once told my DH that in school if the secular studies teacher was absent Rabbi Belsky himself would generally "fill in" since he knew the material just as well, they said a brain like his comes along once in 50 years).
I believe Matzav actually posted one of the papers written by a self described MO pediatric DR attacking the methodolgy and stating several troubiling things done in the investigation.
Don't remember them offhand but I'm sure if you do a search on Matzav you can find it.
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| marina |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:30 pm Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| Quote: | | People can even insist that their mohel get tested and if enough people requested it I'm sure they would. |
Lol, you let me know when that happens.
And I just love the idea of risking children's health because of some ancient superstition in the gemara. Way to go progress!
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| imamiri |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| Ruchel wrote: | The anti circ movement hates everything the circ represents.
I could develop but I think we all know that... |
Yes I know that but is it really necessary to feed them? Is it necessary to help with the process by telling them it's no biggie if a baby or two gets herpes?
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| Merrymom |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| imeinu wrote: | I think the main reason why Metitzah B'peh was not banned by NYC was actually because of the strong pushback from many Rabbonim.
Rabbi Yisroel Belsky actually told the HC at the time that if Metzizah Bpeh was banned then many jews would start doing Brissim in basements in secrecy just as they had to do it in Communist Russia. (pretty strong words).
They also attacked the medical aspect Rabbi Belsky himself is a mohel as well as extremley knowledgable in medical matters (he's one of those freak geniusis who knows everything literally. I once went with my DH to the Living Torah Museam in BP and the curator told me that he speaks over everything with Rabbi BElsky 'cause Rabbi Belsky actually reads and understands 11 ancient languages, A classmate of his once told my DH that in school if the secular studies teacher was absent Rabbi Belsky himself would generally "fill in" since he knew the material just as well, they said a brain like his comes along once in 50 years).
I believe Matzav actually posted one of the papers written by a self described MO pediatric DR attacking the methodolgy and stating several troubiling things done in the investigation.
Don't remember them offhand but I'm sure if you do a search on Matzav you can find it. |
Here's the article. http://matzav.com/halacha-berurah-halachic-historical-and-medical-overview-of-metzitzah-bpeh
Btw, the head mohel probably in the world is Rabbi Romi Cohen (or is it Cohn, I need to check) does m'tzizah b'peh.
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:50 pm Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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The department of health has as much right to step in here as it does when Christian Scientists choose not to take their infants to the doctor or some other dangerous religious practice.
And no, people aren't going to have underground brissim if this practice is outlawed. Maybe for a while, but then things will stabilize and societal norms will kick in.
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| chavamom |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| Merrymom wrote: | | chavamom wrote: | Or maybe it's that at least 1 baby a year in NY alone gets infected through this procedure and has nothing to do with homosexuality or pedophiles.....Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, folks.
And I gotta wonder what reality you are living in. "This part of the body isn't susceptible to infection like other parts...." Wishful thinking? I've got some lovely photos in a dermatology book I can show you to disabuse you of this notion. |
I am not talking about hopital circumsion, that has higher rates of complications which is probably what your book shows. The rate of infection in a orthodox bris is extremely low. I can't remember the statistics exactly but they are available if you want to look into it.
I am not opposed to those who don't want to do metzizah b'peh. Rather I think this is a halachic disscusion and the board of health should have no say in the matter. They did try and the only reason why they didn't succeed is because the mayor of N.Y. got involved and basically got them to back off. They completely exaggerated the case and Rabbi Fisher it turns out didn't get anyone sick from what I understand. I am not opposed to licensing mohelim and requiring them to get tested on a monthly basis. If they are carriers of this virus they shouldn't be allowed to be a mohel at all. I for one am immune to this virus, I cannot get it if I kiss someone who has an active breakout. Should a mohel with similar immunity also be banned from this practice? |
Those are the stats for babies infected with HSV who had bris milah with metzitzah b'peh. You know, if you want to discuss/argue, at least read the articles we are talking about to get up to speed.
And you really seem unclear about the immunity aspects. You are "immune". That means....you are one of the 90% of adults who are HSV seropositive. The virus lives forever in your body. YOU can transmit it to someone if it reactivates in your body. This is why people making claims for "testing" don't know what they are talking about. If someone is HSV positive (over 90% of adults are), they can still transmit. If they are negative, there is no guarantee that they won't acquire an infection and transmit it.
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| Orchid |
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| Posted: Fri, Jun 08 2012, 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| freidasima wrote: |
Not in my book. Hence our mohalim do it through a tube around here. No they are not charedi. they are dati leumi. |
Lots of charedim insist the mohel do it through a tube. I know them personally.
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| Mommy3.5 |
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| Posted: Sun, Jun 10 2012, 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| sarahd wrote: | | eatingbagels wrote: |
From the Dept of Health:
Overall, the risk of herpes infection following metzitzah b’peh was 24.4 per 100,000 baby boys between April 2006 and Dec. 2011, the CDC estimates.
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I am really bad at math, so can someone help me with this? The DOH says there were 11 cases of herpes in infants in 11 years (November 2000-December 2011)
| Quote: | | The report is sure to reignite a long-simmering debate over public health and religious liberties: the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported on Thursday that 11 baby boys in New York City were infected with herpes between Nov. 2000 and Dec. 2011 following an ultra-Orthodox Jewish circumcision ritual called metzitzah b’peh — or oral suction — in which the mohel puts his mouth directly on the newborn’s circumcised aiver and sucks away the blood. |
so an average of one case per year. Yet the risk of infection is 24.4 per 100,000 baby boys? Does that mean that there are 4,100 ultra-Orthodox Jewish baby boys born every year in New York? Wow. Where are all those kids and their sisters going to school? |
24.4 cases per 100,000 babies, that means something like .0025% chance of contracting herpes through metzitza bapeh. the number is said like that to make you think that nearly 25% of jewish babies are contracting herpes this way. It just isn't so.
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| anon for this |
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| Posted: Sun, Jun 10 2012, 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| sarahd wrote: | | eatingbagels wrote: |
From the Dept of Health:
Overall, the risk of herpes infection following metzitzah b’peh was 24.4 per 100,000 baby boys between April 2006 and Dec. 2011, the CDC estimates.
|
I am really bad at math, so can someone help me with this? The DOH says there were 11 cases of herpes in infants in 11 years (November 2000-December 2011)
| Quote: | | The report is sure to reignite a long-simmering debate over public health and religious liberties: the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported on Thursday that 11 baby boys in New York City were infected with herpes between Nov. 2000 and Dec. 2011 following an ultra-Orthodox Jewish circumcision ritual called metzitzah b’peh — or oral suction — in which the mohel puts his mouth directly on the newborn’s circumcised aiver and sucks away the blood. |
so an average of one case per year. Yet the risk of infection is 24.4 per 100,000 baby boys? Does that mean that there are 4,100 ultra-Orthodox Jewish baby boys born every year in New York? Wow. Where are all those kids and their sisters going to school? |
Actually, the report only considers the 5 cases from 4/2006 (when DOH started requiring labs to report herpes test reults) to 12/2011. According to NY Dept. of Education data, about 6,200 boys were enrolled in Orthodox Jewish kindergartens in 2010. The study authors used data from the Avi Chai survey on NYC schools (which was based on 2008-2009 data) to estimate that 43% of those were in Chassidic (non-Chabad) schools, and 29% were in Yeshivish schools. The authors assumed that all of those enrolled in Chassidish schools had MBP, as well as 50% of those enrolled in yeshivish schools, for a figure of 3,564 undergoing MBP. (Note that the study also assumed that none of the boys enrolled in centrist Orthodox, MO, Chabad, and special education had MBP).
If the NYC Dept of Education data and the Avi Chai study are to be believed, then 2,665 boys were enrolled in Chassidic kindergartens & 1,775 in yeshivish kindergartens in 2010, for a total of 4.440, k"ah. I don't live in NYC, but perhaps another poster can comment on whether that number is a believable one and what schools they (and their sisters) are attending.
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| saw50st8 |
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| Posted: Sun, Jun 10 2012, 1:37 pm Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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I would never allow MBP on my sons. Never.
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| Posted: Sun, Jun 10 2012, 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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| Mommy3.5 wrote: | | sarahd wrote: | | eatingbagels wrote: |
From the Dept of Health:
Overall, the risk of herpes infection following metzitzah b’peh was 24.4 per 100,000 baby boys between April 2006 and Dec. 2011, the CDC estimates.
|
I am really bad at math, so can someone help me with this? The DOH says there were 11 cases of herpes in infants in 11 years (November 2000-December 2011)
| Quote: | | The report is sure to reignite a long-simmering debate over public health and religious liberties: the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported on Thursday that 11 baby boys in New York City were infected with herpes between Nov. 2000 and Dec. 2011 following an ultra-Orthodox Jewish circumcision ritual called metzitzah b’peh — or oral suction — in which the mohel puts his mouth directly on the newborn’s circumcised aiver and sucks away the blood. |
so an average of one case per year. Yet the risk of infection is 24.4 per 100,000 baby boys? Does that mean that there are 4,100 ultra-Orthodox Jewish baby boys born every year in New York? Wow. Where are all those kids and their sisters going to school? |
24.4 cases per 100,000 babies, that means something like .0025% chance of contracting herpes through metzitza bapeh. the number is said like that to make you think that nearly 25% of jewish babies are contracting herpes this way. It just isn't so. |
No, you are making a mishmash of the numbers. If you take the number of baby boys that have metzitzah b'peh each year and 1 of them gets neonatal herpes, that's the correct number. That would make it more like 1/3,564. Yes, a very small percentage but when you consider that neonatal HSV has a 64% mortality rate that is more than 1 baby having an avoidable death. As a previous poster mentioned, CDC stats are notoriously under-reported, so in all likelihood the rate is greater.
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| Posted: Sun, Jun 10 2012, 4:18 pm Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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Fun coincidence! my friend had a baby, and she needs a mohel who will accept to do tubeless.
So I'm trying to help her. Most people havent even heard of it. Most mohelim have refused for now. A couple do it if the parents want.
Interestingly it seems the mohalim who are doctor are less likely to do it.
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| Posted: Sun, Jun 10 2012, 4:27 pm Post subject: re: Department of Health on Metzitzah B'Peh |
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my son had metzitza be peh
the mohel washed his mouth out with something right before. alcohol maybe? I know, that sounds weird.
would that in any way help? does alcohol kill the herpes virus?
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