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For those who went to a jewish co-ed school
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moonstone
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PostPosted: Tue, May 29 2012, 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
Tablepoetry wrote:


I do not want my kids to only meet the opposite gender when shidduch time comes around (in some circles boys don't even have much experience even with girls even in their own home, as they are shipped off early to yeshiva). I don't want them to view them as alien.



Yes, exactly- thanks for putting it so well!
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cm
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PostPosted: Tue, May 29 2012, 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
amother wrote:
I went to a regular public school and pda was not allowed on school property. If a teacher caught anyone making out in the school hallways, those kids would be in for some trouble. This is high school I'm talking about by the way, in the United States.


My public school was like this as well - perhaps we were classmates!

I went to co-ed schools throughout my entire formal education, about 20 years all told. I never dated classmates, not because of any kind of principle but because believe it or not, boys and girls don't necessarily fall all over each other given a chance. Although some kids dated, in general we saw each other as colleagues, friends, fellow students, interesting people - not s*x objects. I truly believe that strict segregation of the sexes contributes more to the sexualization of women (and perhaps of men, too) in Jewish society than the sort of normal, daily interaction that some people fear will lead to....what?
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Tablepoetry
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PostPosted: Wed, May 30 2012, 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
cm wrote:
amother wrote:
I went to a regular public school and pda was not allowed on school property. If a teacher caught anyone making out in the school hallways, those kids would be in for some trouble. This is high school I'm talking about by the way, in the United States.


My public school was like this as well - perhaps we were classmates!

I went to co-ed schools throughout my entire formal education, about 20 years all told. I never dated classmates, not because of any kind of principle but because believe it or not, boys and girls don't necessarily fall all over each other given a chance. Although some kids dated, in general we saw each other as colleagues, friends, fellow students, interesting people - not s*x objects. I truly believe that strict segregation of the sexes contributes more to the sexualization of women (and perhaps of men, too) in Jewish society than the sort of normal, daily interaction that some people fear will lead to....what?


This. At most high schools, at least in Israel, the boys and girls aren't all dating each other. There are couples, usually not within the same class interestingly enough, but with other classes or grades. However, in general, IME most dating is with kids OUTSIDE of school.
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chanchy123
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PostPosted: Wed, May 30 2012, 5:21 am    Post subject: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
So DDs school (local Gush Etzyon regional Mamad) runs from 1-3 grades and classes are mixed gender. Which is perfectly fine with me and even preferable IMO. I think the classes are more balanced this way and I agree that kids should be comfortable with the other gender.
The next stage local Mamad had been mixed gender with separate classes, it runs from grades 4-8, but this past year the school has gotten so big that they split it into two separate entities, one for boys one for girls, I think they may be sharing the same campus but I'm not sure.
High schools are completely separate.
I myself went to an elementary school (1-6) that was mixed gender but separate classes, recess, assemblies, tiyulim, etc. were mixed but the actual classes were not. Again, I have no problem with this.
During my sherut leumi (national service) I gave short educational programs in many many religious elementary schools all over the country, ranging from mixed-gender-mostly traditional student body, to Talmud Torah-mostly chardal student body. So I got to experience very different types of schools.

My conclusion is, it's better to have mixed gender classes in younger elementary grades than separate classes/schools (girls are b**y and boys are crazy wild - when they are together they balance each other out). In higher grades (fifth grade and up IME), better to separate, there already is a concept of bf/gf, girls and boys either trying to impress the other gender or shying away from each other.

Any older grades - I think it's totally unhealthy to be together in a school setting, I think even research has shown that girls and boys perform better scholastically in separate gender environments.

However, I do think that girls and boys should be allowed to learn to socialize normally. In my world, youth movements are mixed, and many other after school activities are mixed. Also families do not avoid other families with teens of other genders.
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chani8
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PostPosted: Wed, May 30 2012, 6:15 am    Post subject: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
In the gender segregated schools, does anyone worry about the kids being not-tznius with each other? Is that an "issue"?

After what I've been through, I'm just really worried about putting my boy in a segregated environment again. Gosh, if he's going to mess around, at least let it be with girls.

I am putting this real fear out there. Please tell me what you honestly think. I know it's crazy to even say these things. But I'm practically paralyzed with this decision for next year. What if the yeshiva has a pedophile? I just don't know if my boy can handle any more of this!! Or if I could handle it either!!
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nylon
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PostPosted: Wed, May 30 2012, 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
chanchy123 wrote:

Any older grades - I think it's totally unhealthy to be together in a school setting, I think even research has shown that girls and boys perform better scholastically in separate gender environments.

There is some research that purports to show this, however, there are problems with it--such as the ones done in English schools, where the prestigious schools are single-s*x for historical (NOT pedagogical, though now they claim it) reasons, making it hard to do real comparisons. You also get claims like "girls in girls-only schools are more likely to take physics" and the claims are hard to unpick (even if true, it doesn't mean separation is the best answer to the problem).

There's some very bad theory and research surrounding this issue which can lead to bad stereotyping in the classroom--that boys are always active and always need to read certain types of books, while girls are naturally more social and cooperative, for example. The variation within the genders is as big or larger as the difference between them for things like this. I'm concerned over unnecessary gender stereotyping in school and I think separate schooling may make it worse.

I went to a co-ed high school and I didn't think it was unhealthy. I think it does present some challenges, but I think separate or co-ed can be a smoke screen for not wanting to deal with real issues of gender interaction.

Oh, and PDAs were not allowed in the hallways of the co-ed public high school I went to.
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Ruchel
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PostPosted: Wed, May 30 2012, 11:26 am    Post subject: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
Not tznius with each other? why? either they are tznius, or they aren't (and then they spy or even c'v meet and date the ppl of the local opposite gender school).
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shnitzel
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PostPosted: Wed, May 30 2012, 11:30 am    Post subject: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
I don't think it is a fair or realistic to expect adolescents in a mixed environment to be "shomer negiah". Healthy hormones are going to make healthy teens want to touch. Teva of the world.
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Ruchel
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PostPosted: Wed, May 30 2012, 11:35 am    Post subject: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
I may be an oldie now, but I went to public school and many had not kissed yet. In a charedi environment it should be a given there is a separation in body. In a Mo environment it is expected that friendship can happen but as my MO rav says, if one of them notices something bad he must break the friendship.

Is it fair to expect your kids to dress tznius or keep CY OOT? some expect it. I say they are right to follow their minhag. The Torah of life is meant to live with it, not be bubble wrapped in it.
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Tablepoetry
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PostPosted: Wed, May 30 2012, 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: re: for those who went to a jewish co-ed school
 
Ruchel wrote:
I may be an oldie now, but I went to public school and many had not kissed yet. In a charedi environment it should be a given there is a separation in body. In a Mo environment it is expected that friendship can happen but as my MO rav says, if one of them notices something bad he must break the friendship.

Is it fair to expect your kids to dress tznius or keep CY OOT? some expect it. I say they are right to follow their minhag. The Torah of life is meant to live with it, not be bubble wrapped in it.


True - but IME usually many of those who have not kissed in public high school have not done so due more to awkwardness/shyness rather than high morals. Of course there are many many kids who have not touched because they are Shomer Negiah, but there are 10 times as many who have not touched because they haven't had the opportunity (boys and girls).
Bottom line is that a good chunk of the kids in high school are not pairing off yet. However, OTOH, a good chunk are very flirty with each other even if they don't have a boyfriend/girlfriend - in a DL school that's less pronounced than a secular school, but it still exists.
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