DD says we mistreated her

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7253

Lordy. Why is she still living with you? Time to go honey! There's the door. Apologize if you want and distance yourself from her and her craziness. Even if she has mental illnesses, you do not need to do this any longer. Your parenting of her has ended and she needs to find her own way. If that means blaming her mommy and tatty for her issues for a while, let it be.

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7253

" Dearest child, if you'd like an apology for the time I pulled your hair, here it is: I apologize for the time I pulled your hair. And now, since you are 18, you need to find your own place to live and your own social life and your own career. Since you think we mistreated you, it is only right that you distance yourself from your harmful parents. Please keep in touch occassionally and let us know how you're doing. If you ever change your mind and desire a closer relationship, let us know. All the best- Love mommy & tatty"

Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 1:21 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

I would NOT apologize in front of a therepist. A therepist is a mandated reporter - the therepist could/would be reporting you for abuse.

Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 5:30 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

Op, I'm so sorry for you. I have a brother like this. He is exceedingly manipulative, and has been so his whole life. My mother is week and my father couldn't deal with him either. For example, during the morning rush, when he was 8 years old, he would command my mother to go upstairs and get socks for him. She would meekly comply. Then he'd berate her for getting the "wrong" socks, and command her to do it again. This would repeat several times until she got socks to his majesty's liking. Then she had to apologize for getting the wrong socks and "wasting" his time. It was horrendous. Now he's an adult, and he's a total psychopath. When he came home erev pesach 5 minutes before candle lighting, he asked my mother to do his (adult) laundry. She can't say no, obviously, so she said "well there's not enough time for the machine to finish up the cycle before I have to light." So he said, "well then handwash them." This is a result from someone who grew up with NO CONSEQUENCES. He is separated from his wife (naturally) and came back to my parents, where he began terrorizing them and physically harming them and their property. My parents actually had to call the police on him. What an awful, awful situation.

Here's my advice:

Your gut feeling is, and always was, right. Blatant chutzpah (taping your private conversations and emailing them??!?) MUST have a consequence. I'm sorry you're DH is taking the chicken way out, which is what my parents did ("Oh, he'll outgrow this" - not because they really believed that, but because they were too weak to deal with it, so they hid behind this convenient excuse).
Don't apologize - it can and will be used against you. Under normal circumstances, sure, apologize, but this is not normal.
No more trying to meet her demands, to "sympathize" with her. It's all a trick to manipulate you.
Find a therapist and lawyer who understands these things. Don't be afraid to get an order of protection against her. It can save your lives.

Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 5:36 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

I don't have any advice, just respect. I think it is mighty amazing that in her whole life you only committed one objectionably act. You are amazing!! I think you should get praise, not hand out apologies.

I am sorry you are going through this.
_________________
Liba, mommy to Zlata Tova 5/6/98, Tziporah Faiga 1/12/01, Esther Rivka 7/13/04 and Avraham Chaim 7/2/2006

Gold Member Joined: Mar 16 2009 Posts: 2291

Ladies of imamother: you are reading one side of a story. Imagine, just for the sake of it, that this is an abusive mother (and I am NOT saying she is)??
What about the father's side? Is he just a wimp, which is what it sounds like from OP's description, or is it possible that he has a very different understanding of the situation?

You don't know what's actually going on, and you are giving advice to a person that just strengthens their position. Which, in such a tense and difficult situation, may not be the best thing.

It's difficult to know what's going on. How old is the child? Is she 18 or 14? Are you all really advising that a mother kick out a child so quickly?

The OP has a therapist involved. Is this fear of legal consequences based on anything? Because if the DD claims abuse, that requires reporting as well, even without a motherly confession AFAIK. Because I think she should let professionals who know what is going on help out and be very careful giving advice.

Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 10:04 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

OP, we have a similar situation going on here and are trying everything we can, as you have. Just so you know you aren't alone...and I know how destructive it can be to all involved Crying or Very sad

Active Poster Joined: May 07 2012 Posts: 84

The whole tape recording things is a bit odd and scary.
Could it be that someone else abused her, years ago and she is blaming you instead?

Still, if this girl is out of high school, I would hope she is either in some sort of career training or has a job. I too would suggest she moves out. Where to? I have no idea. But if she thinks it is sooo bad in your house (yes, it is YOUR house), then suggest she go someplace else to live.

Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 11:10 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 11:57 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

There's enough bizarre material in OP's post to justify our rush to accept her viewpoint, even without the other side (most notably, DD's tape recording their private conversations and disseminating it by email). There is no possible "other side" to this. At any rate, my parents too did not want to kick out my brother for fear he would turn to drugs and crime, let alone give up his frumkeit, so OP, I can, in a tiny way, understand your anguish. Just like you can't listen to a radio program in your house, so too my mother can't talk on the phone, ever, for fear he's listening in on an extension. So she whispers on her cell phone when she goes to take out the garbage. That's her life. I'm so sorry you are going through something similar. I think you need to learn to trust your instinct more and learn - at this very late stage - how to be assertive.

Posted: Tue, May 15 2012, 1:03 am Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

OP, I hear your fears about her frumkeit - I"m going to give you my own take, based on my own experiences - take it for what it's worth.

frumkeit needs to include both sides of the luchos in order to be genuine. Allowing her to behave so abusively is endorsing her lack of frumkeit - would you feel the same way if she insisted on "only" turning lights on and off on shabbos. imo, her lack of kibud horim in the extreme is much worse.
_________________
Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional. (I haven't finished growing up yet; I'm still a work in progress - until 120!)

Posted: Tue, May 15 2012, 1:33 am Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

I'm on team skeptical as well. How many amothers over here ever pulled their daughter's hair?? That is abusive, IMO, and people generally don't abuse once. I'm truly sorry for you if this came out of the blue, but I'm skeptical that this is really out of the blue.
She is clearly behaving inappropriately and maybe she is really angry about what happened in her past. If you ever physically or emotionally abused her more than that one incident, I highly recommend you apologize for EVERYTHING sincerely, before you expect more from her.

Posted: Tue, May 15 2012, 1:40 am Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

I come from a genuinely unhealthy, dysfunctional, abusive background. For a while -- back when I believed in talk therapy -- back when I though there could be a way for me to interact with my parents normally and form healthy relationships with them -- back when I thought everything could be different now that I'm an adult -- I also begged my mother to acknowledge all the abuse that went on.

Needless to say, that didn't happen.

Don't know your situation, OP, but this pleading doesn't come out of the blue. And in her attempts to formulate her pain, your daughter is fixating on a particular incident.

Believe me, if all were well, a one-time or even once-in-a-while not-so-ideal punishment would not destroy the relationship. Pulling hair is kind of awful. But spanking with a belt is not so good either, but I know plenty of people who have healthy, normal, loving relationships with their parents despite being spanked with a belt once or twice in childhood.

Because it was good and loving overall.

Your daughter just doesn't know how to express how much pain she's in. I think if you plan to talk to her rather than just throwing her out into the street as some posters are suggesting, you need to start with, "Daughter, I know you have suffered, and we have hurt you. We are sorry. Where can we go from here?"

Posted: Tue, May 15 2012, 9:40 am Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

OP here. Whats wrong is wrong, I agree, but I think for anyone to judge me not having had a child who for her entire school years I had fear of the phone or cellphone ringing, thinking it might be the school calling, way before the incident, is judging too harshly. I dont think anyone had what we had. We were constantly pleading on her behalf. Throughout years of seeing different psychologists I asked them what am I doing wrong to cause this bad school behavior. After many years of them speaking to my daughter privately for many sessions, where she could have easily communicated my bad treatment of her if it was the case, shes certainly not scared of us and has never been, which never happened, they would all answer that Im not doing anything wrong, its her personality. But I cant prove that to you anonymously.

I know I made a mistake but I cant believe Im defending myself like this.

Thanks to all those who have offered words of encouragement.

Platinum Member Joined: Feb 20 2009 Posts: 7647

OP, you must be suffering tremendously. The way you describe your daughter sounds like someone with a personality disorder. People with personality disorders don't follow the usual rules or norms in relationships, so it isn't possible for anyone to draw conclusions about you or her other life circumstances without understanding the bizarre thought processes in her brain. I hope you find the right therapists to work with you and her.

I can't imagine that her frumkeit means much at this point. She may be walking the walk, but if there is no belief and sincerity, what's it worth? If she has enough positive associations with Judaism, I believe she would come back to it when she reaches a point in her healing that allows her to think rationally and make thought-out choices. But if she goes off until then, I can't see much loss beyond the superficial. I don't know how you can cope with that kind of destructive force in your home. And you shouldn't have to.

Gold Member Joined: May 09 2010 Posts: 2122

OP, I'd talk to a rabbi who's considered an authority on dealing with mental illness/psychological issues. Not just an ordinary pulpit rabbi who occasionally does some pastoral counseling, I mean someone who really understands what's at play in a case like this. He would be able to help you figure out what is or is not appropriate for you with regard to keeping your daughter at home. If your only motivation for having her there is to keep her frum, and you think that she'd go off the derech as soon as she was on her own, then she's already got a foot on that path, and it might not be incumbent upon you to have a destructive force in your home anymore. Please please find a rabbi who's a real professional in these matters - if you start a new post looking for that (and you wouldn't even have to explain why you needed it), I bet people here would have some helpful contacts.

I hope things will get sorted out for you soon. *hugs*