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| ally |
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Diamond Member
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 Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| shalhevet wrote: | | ally wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | bigsis144 wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. |
Those who use "sheep" as an insult are referring to the social aspect that we attribute to sheep, "following the herd", and not the religious aspects that ALL the quoted p'sukim and tefilos refer to, which is about following (and trusting in) the SHEPHERD. |
Doesn't that include following piskei halacha from your own Rav or feeling the need to ask him in the first place? Because that's what this thread is referring to. Or is pestering him into changing his psak better than being sheeplike? |
It seems to me that the "Shepherd" in the quoted pesukim is Hashem and not the Rabbanim. As you yourself wrote, the aspect of sheep to a shepherd is only one part of our relationship with G-d. And I am not convinced it is part of the Talmid-Rav relationship. |
The pasuk says 'vedavakta bo' and you shall cleave to Him. Chazal ask how we can cleave to Hashem who is an all-consuming fire, and answer that we should cleave to talmidei chachamim. The talmidei chachamim of the generation are the Shepherd's representative here on earth who His flock should follow. |
I would think we both agree that it is apikorsus to relate to talmidei chachamim in the same manner as we relate to g-d.
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| sequoia |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 2:18 pm Post subject: re: Sheep |
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Shal, I don't even know what your point is, or whom you're denouncing, or for what.
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| shalhevet |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| ally wrote: | | shalhevet wrote: | | ally wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | bigsis144 wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. |
Those who use "sheep" as an insult are referring to the social aspect that we attribute to sheep, "following the herd", and not the religious aspects that ALL the quoted p'sukim and tefilos refer to, which is about following (and trusting in) the SHEPHERD. |
Doesn't that include following piskei halacha from your own Rav or feeling the need to ask him in the first place? Because that's what this thread is referring to. Or is pestering him into changing his psak better than being sheeplike? |
It seems to me that the "Shepherd" in the quoted pesukim is Hashem and not the Rabbanim. As you yourself wrote, the aspect of sheep to a shepherd is only one part of our relationship with G-d. And I am not convinced it is part of the Talmid-Rav relationship. |
The pasuk says 'vedavakta bo' and you shall cleave to Him. Chazal ask how we can cleave to Hashem who is an all-consuming fire, and answer that we should cleave to talmidei chachamim. The talmidei chachamim of the generation are the Shepherd's representative here on earth who His flock should follow. |
I would think we both agree that it is apikorsus to relate to talmidei chachamim in the same manner as we relate to g-d. |
Huh? Who said that? A flock needs guidance and the talmidei chachamim are Hashem's representatives to give us that guidance. If you think I mean, chalila, davening to anyone but Hashem, trusting in anyone but Hashem, thinking that anyone but Hashem knows what I am doing etc. etc. then I'll clarify that that isn't what I meant.
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| happybeingamom |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 2:26 pm Post subject: re: Sheep |
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| I like this thread!
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| black sheep |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 2:26 pm Post subject: re: Sheep |
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| shalhevet, I've learned something from you today. when someone insults me, I will say "thank you" and take it as a compliment. I am who I am. if that is a sheep, (which in my case it isn't, unless you mean a black sheep) then I will wear that label with pride. I, personally, am an independent thinker, and I wear that label with pride. thank you very much.
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| merelyme |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| black sheep wrote: | | shalhevet, I've learned something from you today. when someone insults me, I will say "thank you" and take it as a compliment. I am who I am. if that is a sheep, (which in my case it isn't, unless you mean a black sheep) then I will wear that label with pride. I, personally, am an independent thinker, and I wear that label with pride. thank you very much. |
I think that many of the posters here are what could be called "independent thinkers." That's part of why it was so interesting to be called sheep ... and probably part of the impetus for this thread: to take what was meant as an insult and use it with a different connotation, wearing (as you said) the label with pride.
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| ally |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| shalhevet wrote: | | ally wrote: | | shalhevet wrote: | | ally wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | bigsis144 wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. |
Those who use "sheep" as an insult are referring to the social aspect that we attribute to sheep, "following the herd", and not the religious aspects that ALL the quoted p'sukim and tefilos refer to, which is about following (and trusting in) the SHEPHERD. |
Doesn't that include following piskei halacha from your own Rav or feeling the need to ask him in the first place? Because that's what this thread is referring to. Or is pestering him into changing his psak better than being sheeplike? |
It seems to me that the "Shepherd" in the quoted pesukim is Hashem and not the Rabbanim. As you yourself wrote, the aspect of sheep to a shepherd is only one part of our relationship with G-d. And I am not convinced it is part of the Talmid-Rav relationship. |
The pasuk says 'vedavakta bo' and you shall cleave to Him. Chazal ask how we can cleave to Hashem who is an all-consuming fire, and answer that we should cleave to talmidei chachamim. The talmidei chachamim of the generation are the Shepherd's representative here on earth who His flock should follow. |
I would think we both agree that it is apikorsus to relate to talmidei chachamim in the same manner as we relate to g-d. |
Huh? Who said that? A flock needs guidance and the talmidei chachamim are Hashem's representatives to give us that guidance. If you think I mean, chalila, davening to anyone but Hashem, trusting in anyone but Hashem, thinking that anyone but Hashem knows what I am doing etc. etc. then I'll clarify that that isn't what I meant. |
I guess I picture the shepherd as more of a protector.
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| celestial |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 3:02 pm Post subject: re: Sheep |
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Someone can be an independent thinker and still think be humble before Hashem. I know this may come as a shock, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
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| groisamomma |
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| Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 1:36 am Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| celestial wrote: | | Someone can be an independent thinker and still think be humble before Hashem. I know this may come as a shock, but the two are not mutually exclusive. |
I have a feeling that what's being subtly referenced here is not, shall we say, someone being an independent thinker and humble before Hashem. Quite the contrary, from what I've read in her posts on Imamother lately.
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| black sheep |
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| Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 1:55 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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| I'm so confused. I just realized that I have no idea what this thread is referring to.
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| celestial |
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| Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 2:02 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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| Yeah, I guess I'm lost too. I was taking the post and its responses at face value pretty much.
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| celestial |
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| Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 2:09 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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| Yeah, I guess I'm lost too. I was taking the post and its responses at face value pretty much.
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| hadasa |
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| Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 5:21 am Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| ally wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | bigsis144 wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. |
Those who use "sheep" as an insult are referring to the social aspect that we attribute to sheep, "following the herd", and not the religious aspects that ALL the quoted p'sukim and tefilos refer to, which is about following (and trusting in) the SHEPHERD. |
Doesn't that include following piskei halacha from your own Rav or feeling the need to ask him in the first place? Because that's what this thread is referring to. Or is pestering him into changing his psak better than being sheeplike? |
It seems to me that the "Shepherd" in the quoted pesukim is Hashem and not the Rabbanim. As you yourself wrote, the aspect of sheep to a shepherd is only one part of our relationship with G-d. And I am not convinced it is part of the Talmid-Rav relationship. |
1. There are also references to Moshe Rabeinu, David Hamelech and the other Seven Shepherds. In those cases, the connotation is definitely "a leader to be followed", not merely "protector".
2. "Yehie mora rabach kemora shamayim" (Let the fear of your teacher be as the fear of heaven) is a quote from Pirkei Avos.
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