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| shalhevet |
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 Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 3:36 am Post subject: Sheep |
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הוא אלהינו ואנחנו עמו וצאן מרעיתו - (Tehilim 100)
אימתי אנו עמו?
כשאנו צאן מרעיתו, שנאמר: ואתן צאני צאן מרעיתי, אבל כשאנו אריות, הוא שונא אותנו, שנאמר: היתה לי נחלתי כאריה ביער.
We are His People and His flock of sheep.
When are we His people?
When we are His flock of sheep, as it says, 'And you are My Flock,' but when we are lions, he hates us...
(Yalkut Shimoni there)
"אדרינוס אמר לו לרבי יהושוע בן חנניה: כמה קשה לצאן שרועה בין שבעים זאבים. אמר לו: כמה עז השומר שמצילה מכולם"
Adrianus said to Rabbi Yehoshu ben Chananya: How difficult it is for the sheep who grazes among 70 wolves. He said to him: How strong is the Guard who guards and saves her from them all.
(Yalkut Shimoni)
We are your sheep and You are our Shepherd.
Signed: a happy sheep with a Shepherd above.
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| merelyme |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 3:52 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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It's kind of like calling someone "Jew." Some people consider it an insult.
But that says more about the name-caller than it does about the sheep - or about the Jew.
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| gryp |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 7:07 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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I thought you would write:
Vanachnu Amcha Vtzon Marisecha Nodeh Licha L'olam.
or
Ki Anu Amecha V'ata Elokeinu.... Anu Tzonecha V'ata Rayaseinu (I should double check this from the siddur and not rely on my memory)
Sorry I don't have Hebrew on my computer.
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| gryp |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 7:11 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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One more:
The first leaders of our nation were shepherds for a reason- because they knew how to take care of sheep, they were chosen to lead. (the Avos, Moshe, Dovid)
According to the Zohar, the leader of every generation is called "Raayah Mehemna" or "Ro'eh Ne'eman"- "Faithful Shepherd."
Oh:
"Mizmor LDovid Hashem Ro'I Lo Echsar"
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| sarahd |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 7:37 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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I was also thinking "anu tzonecha ve'ata ro'einu."
Also, "Hosha na tzon kodoshim".
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| Liba |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 7:50 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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The problem is when the wolves figure out how to use a computer and pretend to be sheep.
You can't fool The Shepherd but you can certainly do your best to confuse and upset the sheep before you are called out for who you really are.
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| ora_43 |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 8:08 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless."
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| saw50st8 |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 8:28 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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Can someone put this in context?
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| Ruchel |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 8:30 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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The real sheep could also be the stereotype of the "cool, rebel"...
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| ora_43 |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 8:30 am Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| saw50st8 wrote: | | Can someone put this in context? |
Something about people who ask shailot of rabbis being sheep, IIRC. Shalhevet is wearing her label with pride  .
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| gryp |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 9:15 am Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim.
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| merelyme |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 11:40 am Post subject: re: Sheep |
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Baaaaa.
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| black sheep |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 11:49 am Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| Liba wrote: | The problem is when the wolves figure out how to use a computer and pretend to be sheep.
You can't fool The Shepherd but you can certainly do your best to confuse and upset the sheep before you are called out for who you really are. |
 best post of the week award
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| bigsis144 |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| gryp wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. |
Those who use "sheep" as an insult are referring to the social aspect that we attribute to sheep, "following the herd", and not the religious aspects that ALL the quoted p'sukim and tefilos refer to, which is about following (and trusting in) the SHEPHERD.
Whether the term "sheep" (and ora, I do not intend to badmouth innocent sheep in any way  ) would then apply to those who ask shailos then becomes a matter of hashkafa -- is the charedi hierarchy a social construct, or religious principle?
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| gryp |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| bigsis144 wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. |
Those who use "sheep" as an insult are referring to the social aspect that we attribute to sheep, "following the herd", and not the religious aspects that ALL the quoted p'sukim and tefilos refer to, which is about following (and trusting in) the SHEPHERD. |
Doesn't that include following piskei halacha from your own Rav or feeling the need to ask him in the first place? Because that's what this thread is referring to. Or is pestering him into changing his psak better than being sheeplike?
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| gryp |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 1:32 pm Post subject: re: Sheep |
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Oh, I see you added that in.
Do only Chareidim ask shailos?
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| ally |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| gryp wrote: | | bigsis144 wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. |
Those who use "sheep" as an insult are referring to the social aspect that we attribute to sheep, "following the herd", and not the religious aspects that ALL the quoted p'sukim and tefilos refer to, which is about following (and trusting in) the SHEPHERD. |
Doesn't that include following piskei halacha from your own Rav or feeling the need to ask him in the first place? Because that's what this thread is referring to. Or is pestering him into changing his psak better than being sheeplike? |
It seems to me that the "Shepherd" in the quoted pesukim is Hashem and not the Rabbanim. As you yourself wrote, the aspect of sheep to a shepherd is only one part of our relationship with G-d. And I am not convinced it is part of the Talmid-Rav relationship.
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| sequoia |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 1:54 pm Post subject: re: Sheep |
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I love sheep.
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| Malasheval |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| sequoia wrote: | | I love sheep. |
And muffins.
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| shalhevet |
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| Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: re: Sheep |
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| ally wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | bigsis144 wrote: | | gryp wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | Funny, shalhevet. I'd love to see you make that last line your signature line, then we could save some time in future debates.
I assume that biblical comparisons between am Israel and sheep were meant to make a point about how Hashem looks over us, not to praise the kind of behavior that would be labeled as "sheep like" today. It's a good point, though - we shouldn't insult sheep by using them as a synonym for "mindless." |
We aren't only compared to a sheep, but it is one aspect of the Jewish nation. Seems to me that is Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. |
Those who use "sheep" as an insult are referring to the social aspect that we attribute to sheep, "following the herd", and not the religious aspects that ALL the quoted p'sukim and tefilos refer to, which is about following (and trusting in) the SHEPHERD. |
Doesn't that include following piskei halacha from your own Rav or feeling the need to ask him in the first place? Because that's what this thread is referring to. Or is pestering him into changing his psak better than being sheeplike? |
It seems to me that the "Shepherd" in the quoted pesukim is Hashem and not the Rabbanim. As you yourself wrote, the aspect of sheep to a shepherd is only one part of our relationship with G-d. And I am not convinced it is part of the Talmid-Rav relationship. |
The pasuk says 'vedavakta bo' and you shall cleave to Him. Chazal ask how we can cleave to Hashem who is an all-consuming fire, and answer that we should cleave to talmidei chachamim. The talmidei chachamim of the generation are the Shepherd's representative here on earth who His flock should follow.
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