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Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and kids)
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chani8

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Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2012, 8:54 am Post subject: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and kids

I'd be interested in more of what that Rav poskins, also. I do want to say that my kids joined the "Achdus Movement" (I just made that up) in Eretz Yisroel, and ate kitniyot on Pesach. They were so happy and when they exclaimed how good the Bamba tasted, I said, 'That must be from the Achdus!"

chani8

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Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2012, 8:59 am Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

shalhevet wrote:

israelimom wrote:

For the record, Rav Bar Chaim (the rav from Machon Shilo who I quoted above) is not our rav; we come from Ashkenazi stock and do not eat kitniyot on Pesach.
But his point is an interesting one: he believes that when relocating, one should take on the minhag hamakom and not adhere to "family mesorah" in matters of minhag. And his belief is that the ORIGINAL minhag hamakom of E"Y was to eat kitniyot on Pesach (not that the minhag hamakom has become to eat kitnityot bkz of the prevalence of Mizrachim in our Land).

If we haven't reached the tipping point in our generation, then I can definitely see eating kitniyot as becoming standardized for Bnei E"Y in our children's generation (with perhaps a small subgroup of Ashenazi charedim holding fast to their mesorah from galut). I look forward to a single minhag for all Bnei E"Y regarding this issue (even though we personally are not quite ready to make that leap, I can forsee it gladly for my children)!

Just out of interest, does he hold that everyone in EY (Ashkenazim too) should go by the SA (some people consider Rav Yosef Karo to be the rav by whom anyone in EY should go by) for other issues? So, for example, do those who hold they can eat kitniot due to this also wait 6 hours between meat and milk, a woman wears a redid (a second headcovering over her tichel) when she leaves her house etc.?

I understand that Rav Bar Chaim has decided that those in EY should go by Talmud Yerushalmi. He is an anglo, from Australia, I think.

Ruchel

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Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2012, 1:37 pm Post subject: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and kids

It's not really achdus it's assimilation then. Achdus is everyone being themselves and still respected and cherished... _________________ "You will have many many children and make successful shidduchim beh", rebbetzin Esther Jungreis "It's all cultural, disagree respectfully", me

shalhevet

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Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2012, 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

Ruchel wrote:

It's not really achdus it's assimilation then. Achdus is everyone being themselves and still respected and cherished...

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Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2012, 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

It's not really achdus it's assimilation then. Achdus is everyone being themselves and still respected and cherished...

ITA. Why would achdus be about everyone being the same. In my playground on YT we had tons of achdus with all eidot and religious factions playing together and offering the other kids only foods that were acceptable to them according to their shitta.
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baba

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Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2012, 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

Seraph wrote:

So if using kitniyos oils has a basis, why is it that its just become more prevalent in recent years? And its not just people making aliya now so now its available with a klp hechsher. Is it a trend now to start using kitniyot even if your family mesora was not to? I find it interesting. What percentage of ashkenazi DL/MO use kitniyos oils on pesach, I wonder...

In my community here in Europe it is accepted to use the oils. Also amongst the chareidim. It always has been.
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chani8

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 7:22 am Post subject: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and kids

Nu, what is wrong with assimilation with my own people. I just came out of a life where everyone was splintering off into their holier-than-thou groups and achdus and ahavat yisroel were meant only amongst their own. Witness charedim spitting at the MO in BS. That is where I am from. So I am thrilled to join my Israeli neighbors who are predominantly sefardi or Israeli MO, and the ashkenazim are a minority. Enough separation. My kids are Israeli, they can relax and eat with their friends. You want to call it assimilation. That is rediculous. Call eating chametz assimilation, but kitniyot?? That is exactly the kind of judgementalness that I've had enough of. Someone pass the peas, please!

israelimom

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 10:28 am Post subject: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and kids

For those above who voiced interest in the tahalich and piskei halacha coming from Machon Shilo in general and R' Bar-Chaim in particular, check out their website: http://machonshilo.org/en/index.php They present a thoughtful position that is not without controversy. As I stated in my previous post, I am not a proponent of this particular derech, but I do find it compelling and refreshing. Happy perusing!

Ruchel

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 10:35 am Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

chani8 wrote:

Nu, what is wrong with assimilation with my own people. I just came out of a life where everyone was splintering off into their holier-than-thou groups and achdus and ahavat yisroel were meant only amongst their own. Witness charedim spitting at the MO in BS. That is where I am from. So I am thrilled to join my Israeli neighbors who are predominantly sefardi or Israeli MO, and the ashkenazim are a minority. Enough separation. My kids are Israeli, they can relax and eat with their friends. You want to call it assimilation. That is rediculous. Call eating chametz assimilation, but kitniyot?? That is exactly the kind of judgementalness that I've had enough of. Someone pass the peas, please!

Why can't you just be yourself? why do you need to be what your neighbours are? and what if you move?
Nothing to do with being Israeli or "relaxing". Real friends will accept your children being Ashkenazi. And one week a year!
I think you somehow associate Ashkenazi practice and fanatism. Rest assured there are also Mizrachi fanatics who eat kitniot.

chani8

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 11:16 am Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

Ruchel wrote:

chani8 wrote:

Because there is no reason to not eat kitniyot. That is first and foremost the issue. And look around at all your neighbors who eat it. They are not being chametzed! I am from america, not from ashkenaziland. I am a BT, and my DH is a ger. We have no reason to hold these chumras.

So for those of you who have a lineage all the way back to Dovid Hamelech, well, he probably ate kitniyot too, so I guess I can't even say what I was going to say. Let's try, those of you who can trace your roots to non-kitniyot-eaters, then I guess, you'll feel better connected by keeping those chumrot.

sped

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 12:45 pm Post subject: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and kids

Funny. I never thought of kitniyot as a chumrah. I though tit is a minhag with a fairly long history.

Ruchel

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

sped wrote:

Funny. I never thought of kitniyot as a chumrah. I though tit is a minhag with a fairly long history.

This. It's like those who have a very strong minhag of glatt (for example), they can't just throw it away because it evocates fanaticism to them and per se stam kosher is kosher (obviously). It's a shaila to discuss.

Btw apart from religious reasons there is no reason to not eat pork either.

Many of my neighbours eat them, many don't. So what? To each their mesora. And while a ger can indeed choose according to many sources, in my world a BT has a mesora just like everyone else. Just because a couple generations was not frum, doesn't destroy everything bh. If one is Ashkenazi (American isn't an eda...), it's like 99% chances that one can't eat kitniot. If one has another mesora, or a heter, enjoy.

shalhevet

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

chani8 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

chani8 wrote:

Wow, you are so clever. Fancy that, that you know there is no reason not to eat kitniot, when gedolei olam for close to 1000 years had several.

I'm so sorry that you feel so rootless and detached that you aren't proud of your ancestry - even if there was some break in the middle. And gerim become part of Am Yisrael, not some rootless person who doesn't belong anywhere.

And just a FYI, there are many Mizrahi Jews who don't eat kitnios either. The gezeira (no not a chumra at all) was agreed upon by many Mizrahi gedolim too, particularly those who were physically and halachically in contact with Ashkenazi Jewry.

chani8

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

sped wrote:

Funny. I never thought of kitniyot as a chumrah. I though tit is a minhag with a fairly long history.

Oh, you got me there. I meant minhag not chumra, but then again, the minhag started off as a chumra. So I guess that makes us even. Shocked

chani8

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

Ruchel wrote:

You're kidding about that a glatt eater can't throw it away for stam kosher, right? Shocked

That is funny. But just in case, I bittel'ed my charedi chumrot, don't worry. I eat stam kosher now.

Quote:

Btw apart from religious reasons there is no reason to not eat pork either.

And no, sorry, there is not similarity to eating stam kosher and pork. No similarity at all. And it is for this reason that I gladly eat Rabbanut. Because you can't convince me that our whole country of Jews is eating non-kosher meat because they are only eating Rabbanut. (And fyi, the rabbanut are charedi)

Quote:

Many of my neighbours eat them, many don't. So what? To each their mesora. And while a ger can indeed choose according to many sources, in my world a BT has a mesora just like everyone else. Just because a couple generations was not frum, doesn't destroy everything bh. If one is Ashkenazi (American isn't an eda...), it's like 99% chances that one can't eat kitniot. If one has another mesora, or a heter, enjoy

I do indeed have a mesorah all the way back to eretz yisroel, just like you do, and our ancestors ate kitniyot.

I'm a BT but my father isn't jewish, so since mesora is handed down on the father's side, I guess that lets me off the hook.

The mesora of kitniyot was a makom thing. Those who lived in the towns where those chumras were instituted, followed those chumrot (or be likely not get shidduchim for their kids). But the rest of the world just washed and checked their kitniyot ahead of time.

What do I lose or gain from eating kitniyot? I lose sechel, because it makes no sense. And I gain being able to eat with my neighbors. One of the suspected benefits of some food related prohibitions is that we are kept from mingling with our neighbors. How rediculous that we keep a minhag/chumra like this, in EY where it was never an issue, and that keeps us from mingling with our fellow jew on pesach.

chani8

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

shalhevet wrote:

Wow, you are so clever.

Thank you. It's about time we start being nice to each other.

Quote:

Fancy that, that you know there is no reason not to eat kitniot, when gedolei olam for close to 1000 years had several.

They may have had good reason, although I would disagree in hindsight. Why couldn't they just wash the food ahead of time? You've got to see that it was based in chumrot. You like chumrot, and see those gedolai Torah as very G-dly, so you don't eat kitniyot. I would also ask, who says they would still hold that way, after all these years, when packages are clean and people have time to wash everything ahead of time? And, is there no room in halacha for 'upgrades'?

Quote:

I'm so sorry that you feel so rootless and detached that you aren't proud of your ancestry - even if there was some break in the middle. And gerim become part of Am Yisrael, not some rootless person who doesn't belong anywhere.

Thank you for the validation and support. I'm realy ok with it now. A little therapy really helped. Rolling Eyes

I actually finally feel attached, planting my roots in the Holy Land. And the Am Yisroel I want my family to be attached to is klal yisroel in EY. Not just to the ashkenazim in CH"L.

Quote:

And just a FYI, there are many Mizrahi Jews who don't eat kitnios either. The gezeira (no not a chumra at all) was agreed upon by many Mizrahi gedolim too, particularly those who were physically and halachically in contact with Ashkenazi Jewry.

Right, and today those mizrachim are made to change their sefardi names to sound more ashkenazi and name their kids with good charedi yeshivish names...if they want acceptance that is.

Ruchel

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 2:54 pm Post subject: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and kids

Chani I don't think you understand what I write.

Quote:

I bittel'ed my charedi chumrot, don't worry. I eat stam kosher now.

Of course not everyone needs glatt. It's a shaila.

Quote:

And no, sorry, there is not similarity to eating stam kosher and pork.

Who said so? I think you take what I say in the opposite of what I say.

Quote:

I'm a BT but my father isn't jewish, so since mesora is handed down on the father's side, I guess that lets me off the hook.

Good try but no... you have a mother, right?
Now, if your husband converted and took on a minhag involving eating kitniot, that allows you and your kids. But it seems you used to not eat kitnios so it's not so easy to switch without rabbinical guidance.

Quote:

What do I lose or gain from eating kitniyot? I lose sechel, because it makes no sense.

If you don't do what is a chok or what doesn't "speak" to you, then I understand what you mean, but this is not Judaism.

Even if one week a year you cannot eat at your neighbours, so what. Can you only maintain a friendship with people you can eat at? I have BH many non frum and non Jewish friends. I don't need to compromise being myself.

chani8

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

Ruchel wrote:

Chani I don't think you understand what I write.

Quote:

I bittel'ed my charedi chumrot, don't worry. I eat stam kosher now.

Of course not everyone needs glatt. It's a shaila.

Quote:

And no, sorry, there is not similarity to eating stam kosher and pork.

Who said so? I think you take what I say in the opposite of what I say.

Quote:

I'm a BT but my father isn't jewish, so since mesora is handed down on the father's side, I guess that lets me off the hook.

Quote:

What do I lose or gain from eating kitniyot? I lose sechel, because it makes no sense.

You're right, Ruchel, I do have trouble understanding what you write sometimes. I am not chas v'shalom debating on a chok. This is kitniyot! No chok here. Just a chumra-turned-minhag, and that if you live in EY, I think you don't need to keep it. But if it doesn't bother you, or you dafka feel good doing it, they go ahead. But there is one rabbi on this earth who has poskined that we don't need to keep kitniyot in EY. On principle, I like that! Why does it bother you so? Could you sit down with your neigbors at a meal with rice and corn and just not eat it? That is all I'm suggesting. If you understood where the kitniyot comes from, you wont be bothered in the least by having it at your seuda.

ally

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

Ruchel wrote:

It's not really achdus it's assimilation then. Achdus is everyone being themselves and still respected and cherished...

I will third? fourth? this.

I find the increasing disappearance and merging of minhagim to be sad.

ally

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Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2012, 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: re: Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and

chani8 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Chani I don't think you understand what I write.

Quote:

I bittel'ed my charedi chumrot, don't worry. I eat stam kosher now.

Of course not everyone needs glatt. It's a shaila.

Quote:

And no, sorry, there is not similarity to eating stam kosher and pork.

Who said so? I think you take what I say in the opposite of what I say.

Quote:

I'm a BT but my father isn't jewish, so since mesora is handed down on the father's side, I guess that lets me off the hook.

Quote:

What do I lose or gain from eating kitniyot? I lose sechel, because it makes no sense.

How far do you want to take this?
Do you think that all shuls in EY should daven the same nusach so that anyone can walk into any shul and feel comfortable?

I find beauty in the diversity of Judaism. I think it would be sad if we became an entirely homogeneous nation because it would mean a loss of heritage.

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