How do I handle this???

Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 4:55 pm Post subject: How do I handle this???

On Yom tov my 6.5 yr old nephew (he has ADHD) he called my 3.5 year old son to play with him in the basement at my in law's house when we were there for the meal. Since her playroom is in the basement I figured that he wanted company to play. 15 min. passed with no fighting, I mentioned to my sil that im surprised that her son isn't bullying my son yet... so she casually mentions "when they're quiet for too long that means their pants are down." I was horrified and my son came upstairs with my nephew a few minutes later....of course he didnt want to tell me what he did downstairs until I bribed him. So he said "He pulled his pants and my pants down and he felt his and mine aiver!!!"
I was aghast!!!
I went home and told my husband that I dont want my son to ever see her son again!!!

Can this effect my son badly? is this a form of molestation??? How do I prevent this in the future?

Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 5:06 pm Post subject:

The mother's reaction bothers me more than the actual act. No. I would never let them play unsupervised. I would not let my kid go to their house (if the mother seems so casual about this). While this is not abnormal, children must know that this is unacceptable. It sounds like this boys mother has no problem with this behaviour. Pretty sick IMO

Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 5:21 pm Post subject: re: How do I handle this???

When my son was this age he was also 'into' pulling down his pants with playmates. Which is why I NEVER allowed him to play unsupervised for more than a few minutes. BH he outgrew it.
I agree with the above post, the mother's reaction bothers me more than the act itself. I don't know if this (the act) is 'normal' I hope it is and anyway my son is much older now and doesn't do this anymore. But I made it very clear to him that it is not OK.

How did your child react to this? If he isn't feeling like a victim, don't make him into one. Let him know that no one is allowed to pull down his pants and touch him (aside from the obvious, you the dr, etc) and that this older boy should know better to breach his privacy. Let him know you are so happy and proud that he told you, (even if you had to bribe) that this means he knows not to do this and that you are in no way angry with him and that if it ever happens again he should tell you right away.

I'm sure you know all of this. I personally wouldn't call it 'molestation' but I'm no expert on the matter. Something similar happened to another one of my children at a friends house, my child was older than yours a bit shaken up but we talked about it, dealt with it and moved on. In that case the parents were also very nonchalant about the whole thing. I do not allow my child to go to that house anymore.

I think you can prevent it by repeating the message to your son without scaring him and by supervising him around this child. I feel kind of badly for this older child, his mother needs to educate him a bit better before he gets into some real trouble.
I think your child will be ok.

Platinum Member Joined: Oct 14 2009 Posts: 5894

I agree with amother above. While it's fairly normal for young children to explore a little, they need to be taught quickly that it's not OK, especially not to involve others. They need to be taught about privacy and modesty. So if it were a one-off occurrence I'd probably just write it off as kids who haven't been taught yet, and settle for keeping a closer eye on them in the future. But given the mother's complete lack of attention to the matter, and her open statement that shows she's aware of it and not concerned in the least, that would be enough to make me want to keep my kid away from hers, they're obviously not being raised in a way that will make them good playmates.

Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 5:51 pm Post subject: re: How do I handle this???

Sorry, I can't believe that mother's reaction. Her kid has a problem. The proper response would've been for her to say, "Oh no, I'm sorry I didn't tell you that Johny Dear has a problem. We shouldn't have let them play alone together unsupervised. We're working on figuring out why our son keeps pulling his pants down. Meanwhile, we're just trying not to overreact."

Just realize, that boy learned this behavior somewhere. No normal frum boy just pulls his pants down and esp touches other little boys privates.

If your kid acts out, try to get to the source of the problem. And don't punish. Listen and discuss the issue. Explain why we don't do this and that not only is he not allowed to do this, but if someone wants to do it to him, he can and should say 'no' and then tell you. And that if it ever happens again, 'next time, say no and run away.'

Platinum Member Joined: Oct 14 2009 Posts: 5894

Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 10:39 pm Post subject: re: How do I handle this???

I agree with the poster above. Although the parents reaction seems odd, for some children it's a phase. My 6 and 4 yr old boys went through this. I stopped letting the take a bath together and things like that. I of course said something to them but I felt like dealing with it too harshly could make more of an issue. I don't want to bring too much attention and make it something soooo forbidden that it becomes enticing. Then at a different, non confrontational time we discuss the importance all these things and what we should and should not do.

Platinum Member Joined: Aug 17 2011 Posts: 6011

I agree the mother's reaction is the most disturbing part. As to preventing it in the future, don't let your kid play with his cousin. Are the other mothers in your family who deserve to be told about this child's proclivities?

Platinum Member Joined: Oct 14 2009 Posts: 5894

I would definitely want to have a talk with the kid's parents at some private moment to tell them that it is not acceptable to allow their kid to play that way with other kids. If they seem receptive then MAYBE I'd continue the relationship, keeping a very close eye on the kids. But if they respond with the same attitude of not caring about the situation, I would stay far away and not risk their lack of chinuch rubbing off on my kids.

Since you heard this from the mother, check out whether the father is aware of this (send DH if it's his bro/bil) Sometimes fathers have no idea what goes on in their kids' play lives, they might not be on the scene as much as mom and mom doesn't necessarily report every detail, but maybe if you can't get through to SIL maybe there's hope through dad.

Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 4:43 am Post subject: re: How do I handle this???

I know the warped non-jewish psychologists would say that this is normal exploratory behavior. Most of their data is based on a famous study by a Dr Kinsey who was later found out as a pedophile.

In my frame of reference, I have never heard of normal kids, who are raised in a supervised and sheltered environment, coming up with such ideas on their own. It is different when your children are pointing and giggling at their sibling's privates or at a dolly with no clothes, or running thru the house on the way to their bath with their privates in their hand. But to pull down pants, away from parent's eyes, and 'touch' another child, is beyond that, it is not normal silliness. It is learned behavior, meaning someone did this to them or they saw others do it.

One part of the definition of molestation is whether one person is more powerful than the other, and uses their knowledge of zex over the other. For a 6 yr old to do this to a 3 yr old, falls in that definition. As the parent of the 3 yr old, I wouldn't freak out, but I would realize that my child was just victimized.

I am speaking from personal experience. When my 3 yo had this happen by a 7 yr old family friend, I stopped the relationship immediately. But because of pop psychology and the fact that I'm a survivor and didn't want to 'freak out', I just labelled this incident as 'boys will be boys'.

And over the next several years, my child did this to other kids. And I just couldn't figure out a way to stop him, mostly because as a survivor I was afraid of overreacting and in the back of my head ran that stupid lying tape of, 'boys will be boys'. I now know that it is not true.

My son did this because he was trying to get back the power that was taken from him when it was done to him, for one, and also, it had such a profound impact on his tender soul that he kept reliving it to try to normalize it for himself. "Chaim is my friend. He did it to me. I like him. He thinks it is funny. But I feel badly about it. Yet he's not bad, he's my friend. I just don't get this. Let me try it out and see what is so funny about it." And the cycle begins. . .

Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 4:53 am Post subject: re: How do I handle this???

It is normal behavior for children to explore. It is not a normal reaction on part of your SIL. She should not have left them to play alone until this behavior has been stopped. If she wasn't aware that the children were alone she should have gone down immediately to check up on what was happening. She should have warned you.

As many others here, I'm more concerned with your SILs behavior than your nephew (though he is a bit on the old-side to still be playing this game.)
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 5:51 am Post subject: re: How do I handle this???

I've been thinking about this subject, and I think that the first step is to start talking about personal safety asap, especially with kids who've been thru any incident like the one OP's son had.

And imo, use a book. Check out the charedi website on this issue, www.shomrimyeladim.com for My Name Is Raffi for a free printable 2 page booklet that covers it succinctly. But read it first to see if you need to edit it for his developmental age, and make sure to keep the tone positive.

After reading the book, I would say something like, "See, Shmuelly, the rabbi says it's not ok what cousin did. His mommy needs to tell him not to do it anymore, dont you think?" and "Look what a smart boy you are, you knew it wasn't ok what he wanted to do, and later when I asked what happened, you told me. I'm so proud of you. If it ever happens again, what does Raffi (the book) say to do?" (say no, run away, and tell your mom)

The problem with trying to teach safety, is when the issue gets so out of control that everywhere your child goes, boys are pulling their pants down and touching each other. This was the case for both of my boys. In my neighborhood, it finally came out that the root cause was the local friendly zeidy who was showing all the little kids videos on his I pad of boys touching each other (child pornography). For these sheltered kids, seeing a video was so exciting that they were completely focused on what they were seeing, and what they saw was so troubling, that they started acting out in groups to each other. After all, the zeidy showed the video to groups of boys at a time, while parents looked on from across the street, smiling and waving at their boys, who were getting zeidy attention (after all Abba is learning all day) and free shomer service (mom needs a break!), and warped minds, all at the same time.

So also, ask yourself, ask your neighbors, is there a problem of this kind of behavior in the neighborhood right now?? And if it appears so, ask your LOR, "Why?" Perhaps then he will finally 'allow' people to report the zeidy. And now I'll go back to Pesach in my neighborhood that does report and there is zero tolerance for 'boys will be boys'.

Gold Member Joined: Apr 29 2010 Posts: 1026

Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 7:50 am Post subject: re: How do I handle this???

I asked my kids and they totally disagree that kids will naturally pull down their pants, convince another child to pull down theirs, and touch each other.

Maybe boys will flip up the girls skirts to see their underwear. Maybe the boys will compare their privates (in the gym room). Maybe a child wants to see their opposite gendered sibling's private parts out of curiosity.

But it crosses the line when it becomes zexual, as in, there is touching to zexually stimulate. Touching private parts is not normal behavior between friends!!

Gold Member Joined: Mar 04 2009 Posts: 2236

I agreee with chanie that there is a strong chance your child felt sexually victimized. And you need to address that.

I would hold my child a lot to make him feel secure.

I would sit down on the floor with him and put some mentchies down. I would say that I'm going to play a story. I would take a little boy mentchie and give it a name." Moishe feels all mixed up. His cousin asked him if he wants to play a game and it sounded fun. He pulled down his pants and touched him and that made him feel bad. Now he is so so angry. I would then have Moishe mentchie stand in front of the "cousin" mentchie and yell his top at him. I would say. "NO NO NO, you can't do that do me. It is not allowed. That is my body and your not allowed to touch it. It is mine!

I would watch closely to see how my child reacts. If he hates it I would stop right away. But if he can I would let him get into it. I would let him beat up the cousin mentchie and take back his power. I would also let him play however he likes so that his mixed up feelings can be sorted out.

I would keep reflecting on how he plays this out. If he yells at the cousin I would say Moishe is very angry. If he cries I would say Moishe is sad. If he doesn't want to deal with it, I would say Moishe doesn't want to talk about it. etc. reflecting back is a form of validation and gives the child a sense of clarity.

Hope this helps.

Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 9:39 am Post subject: Re: re: How do I handle this???

Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: re: How do I handle this???

Gold Member Joined: Mar 16 2009 Posts: 2293

OP:

The boys' behavior is normal. I would probably be worried about my child, but a lot depends on how your little boy felt. If he's fine, don't worry too much about it. If you are worried, you can always speak with your pediatrician about it just to get a professional opinion from someone who knows the child.

Like others said, the mother's reaction was strange and inappropriate. I would nix future playdates with the kid.

I'm not sure whether you should speak to the other mother or not. It depends on lots of other things, IMO.

The story really disturbs me. If the mom hadn't said that, I'd just assume it was harmless play. But if this is a pattern of behavior on the part of the 6 year old... that bothers me. As, again, does the mother's blase attitude.

Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 2:54 pm Post subject: re: How do I handle this???

The mother FREAKS ME OUT. For real.

Now, the kid. I don't know if it can be his own idea or if he was molested, but if he was raised frum, wasn't he told about tznius?
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