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 Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 12:22 am Post subject: Re: re: Kosher store selling non'kosher products, WWYD? |
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| Lady Godiva wrote: | Does the owner have a certificate that all the products being sold are kosher? If he does, I'd alert the kashrut agency that certifies him.
I think that when it comes to grocery shopping, the consumer must be aware and shop with their kashrut standards in mind.
I find myself looking for kosher signs on foods I KNOW are kosher. Just to confirm it. |
I didnt know a supermarket needs a hechsher. I thought only caterings or take outs that sell cooked/ unwrapped stuff needs a hechsher. cant each person check the packaging on whatever they buy?
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| teachby |
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 1:08 am Post subject: re: Kosher store selling non'kosher products, WWYD? |
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| I just want to say that here in Los Angeles, the kosher store owners and managers are all extremely nice and bend over backwards to please their customers, because they realize that they have competition. I'm sorry to hear this is not the case everywhere.
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| Raisin |
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 3:52 am Post subject: re: Kosher store selling non'kosher products, WWYD? |
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if there was a hechsher on the product you have to take up any issues with the hechsher, not the store owner. I always check hechsherim. If other people are not checking hechsherim, there is nothing you can do about it.
(once, when I was a kid, my mother sent me to buy baked beans. I picked up some cans and went to pay for them. The owner of the store told me, your family doesn't eat those, and gave me another brand instead.)
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| DrMom |
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Kosher store selling non'kosher products, WWYD? |
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| amother wrote: | I recently bought a packet of sweets from a local Kosher store which were similar but a different brand to the ones I usually buy.
When I got them home I was checking the ingredients and noticed that E120 (non-kosher food colouring made from beetles) was listed.
So... I took the sweets back to the store, waited until there were no customers in there (so as to avoid embarassing the owner) and politely told him I just bought these sweets and noticed they have a non-kosher ingredient. I mainly wanted him to be aware so that he could withdraw the sweets from sale but getting my money back would also have been nice!
Anyway, he totally got angry and yelled at me! He said it is kosher and that there are kosher forms of E120 as well as non-kosher ones just like there is kosher gelatine as well as non-kosher. He was very rude to me, even shouting, he was so angry!
I was pretty sure it is not possible to get kosher E120 as if the colour was made differently it would have a different number but I did ask my Rabbi who confirmed it wasn't kosher.
What would you do in my situation? There are many Jews in my city who would never think to check the packet of an item from a kosher store, assuming that everything sold there is OK to eat. There was a hechsure on the packet but it was not one I am familiar with and my Rav hadn't heard of it either. |
What was the hecsher? Did you call the company? Maybe the company which makes the candy used it w/out authorization? In which case, it's not the store-owner's fault (although I agree his rudeness was uncalled for).
If you suspect it is a completely fraudulent hecsher, you need to find find out (perhaps ask your rav to help you investigate the matter) and have someone alert the store. I would give the store owner the benefit of the doubt. He may not have known.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Kosher store selling non'kosher products, WWYD? |
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| DrMom wrote: | | What was the hecsher? |
I just checked again and actually it was just the name of a Rav. Rav Moshe' Alloun. It has the Rav's name in a square and says kasher l'pesach - kitniot in Hebrew.
Imasinger - thank you for posting that link! It seems that there is an opinion that eating crushed dead beetles is OK as long as they are over a year old! I did not know of this so I have learnt something new!  I'm struggling to understand how it can be OK but this topic confuses me in general because it all seems so political sometimes.
My Rav has said we are not to eat this so I guess, as others have suggested, it is up to individual customers to check the packaging and decide if they want to eat it. It is a shame though because I think many people would not know which individual numbers are usually forbidden and just think it is approved by a Rav so it must be OK.
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| ora_43 |
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: re: Kosher store selling non'kosher products, WWYD? |
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| Chocoholic wrote: | | And yes it's an ineresting fact that kosher store owners are often very rude, inconsiderate and not polite (compared to their not kosher store counterparts). I don't know why. Maybe it is because people "have" to buy from them anyways (for kashrut reasons), food for thought most definately. |
In America at least, when you're shopping in a regular store it's almost always one branch of a huge chain and you aren't interacting with the actual owner at any point. Everyone involved gets their salary no matter what you do or don't do, and criticism of products or prices has nothing to do with them personally.
Whereas the kosher stores are usually small businesses, and if you say "this product is no good" or "why is this so expensive," etc, it's more of a direct criticism against the owner himself.
That's my guess, anyway. I haven't found that kosher store owners are any more rude than other small business owners, but they are more likely to get offended than is cashier #12 at branch #305 of whatever big business.
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| DrMom |
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| Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2011, 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| imasinger wrote: | It strikes me as a matter for further learning/discussion. But it does seem as if there are several opinions. A quick look online found the following:
| Quote: | What is the Law regarding the Kashrus of the food colouring, Carmine?
May a "Kosher Certificate" be provided for Carmine, a natural food colouring that is derived from [non-K] insects that are found on cactus plants? Carmine is manufactured by dehydrating the insects after which they are pulverised.
A "Kosher Certificate" may be provided for Carmine that is more that one year old. This count begins with the death of the insects. [Meaning that although the insects may have only been converted into the finished product a short time ago, it may be certified as Kosher provided the insects have been dead for one year.]
This is the opinion of the Shoel U’MeiShiv quoted by the Darkey Teshuvah Y”D 102:30. This ruling satisfies the ShaArey TzeDek and is also the understanding of the MinChas Yitzchok 3:96.
A “Kosher Certificate” may be provided for foods that utilise non “Kosher Certified” Carmine as an ingredient, even if it can not be verified that the Carmine is at least 12 months old.
This is the opinion of the Shoel U’MeiShiv and the Pischey TeShuvah Y”D 87:20 who quotes the Tiferes Tzvi. However the ShaArey Tzedek, quoted by the Darkey Teshuvah 87:133, disagrees.
conclusion of BeMarEh HaBazak |
That is from http://www.kosherveyosher.com/carmine-e120.html |
Fascinating!
Utterly repulsive, but fascinating.
Which hecsherim hold by which opinion? (wondering if I now have to scan ingredient lists to see which hecshered products have old dead bugs in them so I can avoid them.  )
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| ewa-jo |
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| DovDov |
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| Posted: Thu, Nov 17 2011, 12:22 pm Post subject: re: Kosher store selling non'kosher products, WWYD? |
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I don't think anyone thinks a store NEEDS a hashgacha -- it's more of a convenience thing -- that way if people trust the hashgacha they don't need to check individual products. In Chicago, IIRC, there's one store where everything is cholov yisrael, right?
Re: the water, just because one rabbi somewhere holds distilled water needs a hechsher does not mean it's a problem for a frum store to carry it without. The CRC holds any unflavored bottled water is fine, even with added minerals. The Star-K specifically mentions distilled water (with or without minerals) as fine without a hechsher for Pesach; obviously it's okay the rest of the time.
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