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Amother


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Posted: Tue, Oct 18 2011, 3:51 pm Post subject: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| Listen, we have all both in real life and even perhaps on this thread, met people who are socially off. They say, or type, bizarre things. They know no boundaries. Yet they still deserve friendship and hospitality. Unless it's ruining your seudah continue to invite her on occasion. If it's really negatively affecting your family, then stop hosting her.
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Posted: Tue, Oct 18 2011, 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| Fox wrote: |
Likewise, the best way to keep the Shabbos table on track is to keep things moving along. Several years ago, a well-known rabbi caused a firestorm when he suggested that men plan a "seder" for the Shabbos tisch rather than simply letting things happen. No one is suggesting your DH use a stopwatch, but this may be a reason to make the tisch a bit more structured. Reviewing parsha sheets or crafts; singing zmiros; saying a dvar Torah and keeping the conversation focused on it . . . these are all ways to avoid having your Shabbos tisch turn into a therapy session. For obvious reasons, men tend to allow their wives to direct things where female guests are involved, but this is actually a situation where your DH needs to take firm control. It doesn't particularly matter what approach or activities he chooses -- he just has to make sure he's in control of the tisch at all times.
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Phenomenal idea if the dh is a personality who can and will do that.
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| Dolly Welsh |
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Posted: Tue, Oct 18 2011, 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DrMom wrote: | | Dolly Welsh wrote: | | We need babies. The lazy thing isn't going to improve at your house. I repeat, you are civilians and are not trained. |
Huh?  |
I take this back. I did not realize how sick she was, emotionally and physically. I second what Fox said.
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Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 12:00 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| zaq wrote: | | Fox wrote: |
Likewise, the best way to keep the Shabbos table on track is to keep things moving along. Several years ago, a well-known rabbi caused a firestorm when he suggested that men plan a "seder" for the Shabbos tisch rather than simply letting things happen. No one is suggesting your DH use a stopwatch, but this may be a reason to make the tisch a bit more structured. Reviewing parsha sheets or crafts; singing zmiros; saying a dvar Torah and keeping the conversation focused on it . . . these are all ways to avoid having your Shabbos tisch turn into a therapy session. For obvious reasons, men tend to allow their wives to direct things where female guests are involved, but this is actually a situation where your DH needs to take firm control. It doesn't particularly matter what approach or activities he chooses -- he just has to make sure he's in control of the tisch at all times.
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Phenomenal idea if the dh is a personality who can and will do that. |
I think that it also says in the book Positive Parenting, that once you have kids, your shabbes meals should be focused on them - reviewing parsha and quizes etc. - and if the guests are there they just get to watch it and eat, but they are not the center of the conversation.
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Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 12:58 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| amother wrote: | | I think that it also says in the book Positive Parenting, that once you have kids, your shabbes meals should be focused on them - reviewing parsha and quizes etc. - and if the guests are there they just get to watch it and eat, but they are not the center of the conversation. |
Bingo! That's probably where I got the idea. The OP didn't say how old her kids are, so I can see how it might be hard with toddlers or really young school-age kids. But it's definitely worth the extra effort, regardless of the presence of guests. Kids also love pageantry, ceremony, and ritual, so what might seem a little overboard to adults in terms of formality at the tisch is just about right for kids.
Truthfully, it's not just the sad-sack guests who need to have the spotlight taken off them. We often had male guests, for example, who wanted to chat endlessly about professional sports (though I suppose you could argue that in Chicago, discussing professional sports is by definition being a sad-sack!). And, of course, as another poster mentioned, there are always the guests who have political bees in their bonnets. It's not that one necessarily disagrees with them, but the Shabbos tisch isn't the forum for political rants.
Although my DH always had a flair for the dramatic, I suspect that a lot of DHs, especially younger ones, feel silly or pretentious acting so formally at the Shabbos table. Wives can encourage them and remind them that creating a set format and enforcing "rules" for the tisch is every bit as important as the food. Eventually, of course, they will find the perfect balance between a formal event and a more leibedek, free-wheeling affair, but a little structure is good for the kids and even better for the guests!
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Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 3:16 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| Dolly Welsh wrote: | | zaq wrote: | | Raizle wrote: | If you have enough other guests to divert the conversation will it help?
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This. Other guests to act as buffers. especially if they're the outgoing type who can grab the conversational ball, run with it, and never let it go! |
Great theory, but people tread familiar paths, not unfamiliar ones. The party will be going great, with lots of guests, and OP will discover, in the happy confusions, that this Guest has cornered her DH yet again, telling him her sad tale. Why? Simply because it's the path of least resistance. What worked last time, you will see more of. There may even be frost between DH and OP about this, and it won't even be DH's fault because he was pinned, but OP still won't like it. OP has plainly stated here that she is not pleased at Guest's manners. They are not going to change, or not here.
Guest is a big girl and can be held responsible for her tick-like parasitism.
Chabad will straighten her right out, marry her off, and give her a useful life, instead of this destructive game she is doing. Let it be so, I'Y H". |
dolly what's with the dissection of every one else's advice posts?
I wasn't going to comment on your pack it off to chabad thread but since you posted that you also quoted other people's advice and tore them all apart. If there was one piece of advice you didn't like that's one thing but to diss EVERYONE's advice because it doesn't conform with your own is taking it a step too far. It's not as if anything that was said was damaging or offensive. OP can choose what works for her best and suits her
Now as for the Chabad comments. I'm a Lubavitcher and as much as I enjoy the compliments they sound somewhat off-base to me.
We aren't trained psychologists. Even those on shlichus. Yes we are about infusing joy (as are many chassidim, Breslov included) and all that but to say we are trained to the extent that WE can turn around a moreh shchoradike personality and change them I think is taking it too far. If this girl was to come to my Lubavitcher table and be acting the way she is acting at the OP's I'd also have a hard time with it.
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Amother


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Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:17 am Post subject: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I think we will try to have her again, but DH will just have to perpare more before hand. He is usually good about diverting the conversation with a dvar torah and singing, and if he runs out of things to divert the topic, he picks up a sefer and we learn a halacha like hilchos shabbos.
But I guess he could find even more things to talk about.
My kids arent really school age yet, so we don't have parsha sheets or anything like that yet.
DH doesn't like to sing alone when we have female guests, and I don't really like to invite this girl with too many people.
we had a disaster once when our out of town friends where here for a chag. They are a young couple with a baby. we also had this girl, my in-laws and brother in law. It was a nice big meal and things were going well. I knew that the girl probably knew the husband of the family, but I didn't know that she also knew the wife (who is from oot). Anyway she kept telling the husband how her dad always thought she would marry him. The wife was mortified, but I guess she knew the girl enough not to think too much about it.
still totally awkward situation.
she makes comments like this about my bil who is 19 and this girl is much older. she says how he is the only other single guy that she knows here... so weird.
anyway, I feel bad that she has doesn't have places to go, so I can try to have her, on occasion again,
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Posted: Sun, Oct 23 2011, 2:11 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| amother wrote: | | Thanks for the advice everyone. I think we will try to have her again, but DH will just have to perpare more before hand. He is usually good about diverting the conversation with a dvar torah and singing, and if he runs out of things to divert the topic, he picks up a sefer and we learn a halacha like hilchos shabbos. |
That is really sweet of you. I wish I knew more people like you.
I am divorced twice and very angry and annoyed that I am single, living alone and having a very hard time finding people to eat by on Yom Tov. I cover my hair fully; I am shomer shabbat 100%, but people are very selfish. I am cheeful and don't use foul language.
I have let my neighbors know that I am single and have NO PLACE TO GO for shabbos, and yet they don't care.
I went to the shabbos shiur a few times so the neighbors could get to know me, but still NO INVITATIONS FOR SHABBOS.
I finally signed up for SHABBAT.COM and got an invitation a half-mile away from where I live. Another family fof Baaleli Teshuva from my block also got the same invitation and had the same complaint: Why is it that my block is very very frum, but they only invite family members for meals? They are very, very selfish.
I started to see something, though: There is a connection between chessed and happiness. The families that do more chessed are happier. The families that are selfish are mean!!!!!
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Posted: Sun, Oct 23 2011, 3:37 am Post subject: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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I would not say all chessed families are happier and all family-only families are "mean" or unhappy. I have seen all kinds, from one extreme to another.
Now, yes, there are families where people are not used to inviting strangers. It is not "mean". It is also not "mean" if you don't volunteer at the old age home or fundraise for your school (someone asked to invite or obviously seeing a neighbour struggle is something else). _________________
"You will have many many children and make successful shidduchim beh", rebbetzin Esther Jungreis
"It's all cultural, disagree respectfully", me
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| shalhevet |
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Posted: Sun, Oct 23 2011, 8:25 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| amother wrote: | | amother wrote: | | Thanks for the advice everyone. I think we will try to have her again, but DH will just have to perpare more before hand. He is usually good about diverting the conversation with a dvar torah and singing, and if he runs out of things to divert the topic, he picks up a sefer and we learn a halacha like hilchos shabbos. |
That is really sweet of you. I wish I knew more people like you.
I am divorced twice and very angry and annoyed that I am single, living alone and having a very hard time finding people to eat by on Yom Tov. I cover my hair fully; I am shomer shabbat 100%, but people are very selfish. I am cheeful and don't use foul language.
I have let my neighbors know that I am single and have NO PLACE TO GO for shabbos, and yet they don't care.
I went to the shabbos shiur a few times so the neighbors could get to know me, but still NO INVITATIONS FOR SHABBOS.
I finally signed up for SHABBAT.COM and got an invitation a half-mile away from where I live. Another family fof Baaleli Teshuva from my block also got the same invitation and had the same complaint: Why is it that my block is very very frum, but they only invite family members for meals? They are very, very selfish.
I started to see something, though: There is a connection between chessed and happiness. The families that do more chessed are happier. The families that are selfish are mean!!!!! |
I don't know you and I don't know where you live or what you or your neighbours are like, but perhaps not getting invitations is something to do with you? You sound angry and bitter and entitled - I am not saying you are like this in real life, just that you come across here in this way.
Why do you think people "have to" invite you to a meal? Have you tried inviting a family or another single woman to you for Shabbos if you don't want to be alone?
I can think of a million and one reasons why people might not be able to have guests - they can't afford the expense or they have SB or chinuch problems, or they work all week and are ready to drop on Shabbos or the wife is pregnant or soon after birth. If you read imamother you will see that many people don't have much choice about inviting/ going to relatives, and even if they do - well, maybe they choose to as the only chance to get together with them.
Maybe if you were DLKZ a little more, instead of painting everyone as selfish and mean, you would get more invitations.
I hope you soon have your own home, and meanwhile why not invite someone else for this Shabbos, even if you are on your own? _________________ "The problem begins with... their political hangers oners... such as Anat Hoffman. She is a davener like I am a chinese belly dancer." (FS)
Professional Hebrew>English translations - pm me for details.
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Posted: Sun, Oct 23 2011, 6:48 pm Post subject: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| Quote: | | I started to see something, though: There is a connection between chessed and happiness. The families that do more chessed are happier. The families that are selfish are mean!!!!! |
As someone who would love to have guests but isn't a good coper under even normal conditions, I find your post extrememly hurtfull and offensive.
I'm not selfish. I wish I could give more of myself but when I try to, I plotz and my family has to pay the consequences.
I'm sorry you are having a hard time getting invitations but like shalhevet suggested maybe you need to look inside yourself first before you speak about people that way.
Try looking out for a family on your street that could do with an extra hand. You are single and alone so for you it should be easier to prepare shabbos and invite them. Try being a little selfless and give to others yourself before criticizing. Maybe then YOU will be happier and not so mean
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Posted: Mon, Oct 24 2011, 6:19 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| amother wrote: | | Quote: | | I started to see something, though: There is a connection between chessed and happiness. The families that do more chessed are happier. The families that are selfish are mean!!!!! |
As someone who would love to have guests but isn't a good coper under even normal conditions, I find your post extrememly hurtfull and offensive.
I'm not selfish. I wish I could give more of myself but when I try to, I plotz and my family has to pay the consequences.
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This amother, who says you aren't doing chessed? It sounds like you are doing 100% chessed with your own family by doing the best for them.
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| ora_43 |
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Posted: Mon, Oct 24 2011, 6:39 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| amother wrote: | That is really sweet of you. I wish I knew more people like you.
I am divorced twice and very angry and annoyed that I am single, living alone and having a very hard time finding people to eat by on Yom Tov. I cover my hair fully; I am shomer shabbat 100%, but people are very selfish. I am cheeful and don't use foul language.
I have let my neighbors know that I am single and have NO PLACE TO GO for shabbos, and yet they don't care.
I went to the shabbos shiur a few times so the neighbors could get to know me, but still NO INVITATIONS FOR SHABBOS.
I finally signed up for SHABBAT.COM and got an invitation a half-mile away from where I live. Another family fof Baaleli Teshuva from my block also got the same invitation and had the same complaint: Why is it that my block is very very frum, but they only invite family members for meals? They are very, very selfish.
I started to see something, though: There is a connection between chessed and happiness. The families that do more chessed are happier. The families that are selfish are mean!!!!! |
I'm sorry to hear it amother.
People might just not "get it" as quickly as you'd expect. If I were your neighbor I'd probably love to have you over, but I'd probably still be clueless that you'd like an invitation, unless you were so direct as to say "I hate being alone on Shabbat, I really wish someone here in the neighborhood would invite me for meals." I like having guests but between everything else going on in life, sometimes it takes a while to realize "oh! I could invite so-and-so."
Maybe talk to the rabbi of your neighborhood shul? Our local rav is the one who clues us in to most potential guests.
I do think there's a cultural difference when it comes to Shabbos invites. BTs, geirim, and some FFBs have been in the position of needing regular invitations out, so they're more likely to associate Shabbat meals with chessed time. MO couples often invite friends. And for hareidi/yeshivish families, it's family time.
For those in that last category, it's not that they're selfish. They're still living by "love your fellow man as yourself" - it's just that they can't imagine ever wanting to spend Shabbat anywhere other than at home or maybe, occasionally, with relatives, so it doesn't occur to them that someone else might want that.
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Posted: Mon, Oct 24 2011, 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| shalhevet wrote: | | amother wrote: | | Quote: | | I started to see something, though: There is a connection between chessed and happiness. The families that do more chessed are happier. The families that are selfish are mean!!!!! |
As someone who would love to have guests but isn't a good coper under even normal conditions, I find your post extrememly hurtfull and offensive.
I'm not selfish. I wish I could give more of myself but when I try to, I plotz and my family has to pay the consequences.
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This amother, who says you aren't doing chessed? It sounds like you are doing 100% chessed with your own family by doing the best for them.  |
thanks but I'm not doing a chessed as far as chinuch is concerned because I'm not setting a good example in terms of Hachnosos Orchim. That really bothers me.
My kids want me to invite, they ask for it and I feel like an ogre saying I'm not up to it right now.
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Posted: Tue, Oct 25 2011, 3:57 am Post subject: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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Amother, I don't think you should feel bad for saying no. Imagine if you said yes and then snapped in the middle of the meal!
Children don't have to get everything they ask (even when it is good and positive) but let them know how right they are and that IYH you hope to be able to do it one day, and will let them know!
Also as much as we would want, every parent cannot model every midda and mitzva. They will learn about orchim at school
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| Raisin |
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Posted: Tue, Oct 25 2011, 5:12 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| shalhevet wrote: | | amother wrote: | | Quote: | | I started to see something, though: There is a connection between chessed and happiness. The families that do more chessed are happier. The families that are selfish are mean!!!!! |
As someone who would love to have guests but isn't a good coper under even normal conditions, I find your post extrememly hurtfull and offensive.
I'm not selfish. I wish I could give more of myself but when I try to, I plotz and my family has to pay the consequences.
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This amother, who says you aren't doing chessed? It sounds like you are doing 100% chessed with your own family by doing the best for them.  |
Shalhevet, overwhelming yourself is not a good idea. But who said having guests needs to be overwhelming? Imagine if Avraham Avinu and Sara decided not to have guests because it was overwhelming and Sarah was too depressed about not having kids.
I find the shabbos meals run a lot more smoothly when we have guests, and my kids behave better.
Maybe people need to cut down on on how much food they are serving on shabbos as well. people seem to think it you HAVE to have fish, 7 salads, soup, chicken or meat and several side dishes. Sure its overwhelming when you make so many different dishes. But guess what, make less! most people can't eat that much. Skip the soup or fish, make one salad, 1 or 2 dips if you like them, a main dish and one side. and voila.
And when you do invite guests, make sure they are the people who really need a shabbos meal.
I have a friend who never ever invites guest becasue it is too overwhelming. Why is it overwhelming? becuase she is a tidyness freak. she literally follows her kids around tidying up after them. if she could cope with a bit of mess having guests would be no problem.
ruchel, next time you are in the middle of nowhere and you call up chabad and they can't host you would you be upset? You've got upset with people for a lot less then that.
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Posted: Tue, Oct 25 2011, 5:16 am Post subject: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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I don't remember one time where I stayed for a meal at anyone, Chabad or not, unless I was invited or was asked to stay or I booked in advance. Sorry, people don't have to deal with my organization problems if I forget to make plans.
I also find a big difference between someone setting up a Chabad house and possibly advertising for the possibility of hosting, and a random family.
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Posted: Tue, Oct 25 2011, 5:28 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| Ruchel wrote: | I don't remember one time where I stayed for a meal at anyone, Chabad or not, unless I was invited or was asked to stay or I booked in advance. Sorry, people don't have to deal with my organization problems if I forget to make plans.
I also find a big difference between someone setting up a Chabad house and possibly advertising for the possibility of hosting, and a random family. |
Chabad shluchim are people too. If they decide it is too overwhelming to have guests (and often it is; chabad shluchos are not immune to difficult pregnancies, kids, illnesses etc) you would not be able to be invited or arrange a meal.
I don't think people need to or should have guest every shabbos meal. But I really think it is an important mitzva to show to your children, even if it is once every 2 months. And if you are inviting the lonely widows or divorcees, honestly they do not need or want a fancy meal. Don't feel the pressure to have a perfect house or over the top meal.
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Posted: Tue, Oct 25 2011, 5:33 am Post subject: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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Well you chose the wrong person for the example as we are very organized travellers (at least for important things like food) and do go easily without any invites.
Of course Chabad shluchim are people, but they are also shluchim and can expect more people asking to eat than the average Joe Shmoe. Just like I sometimes have to say no, but as a shadchanit I WILL get calls or emails for a shidduch even at inconvenient times and when possible I will have to make the effort. Which is why few people want to be shluchim, or shadchanim, or rabbis, or any activity that is very rewarding but it's not like you leave the office and it's over.
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Posted: Tue, Oct 25 2011, 5:43 am Post subject: Re: re: Please help me with a "hard to have" guest |
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| Raisin wrote: | | shalhevet wrote: | | amother wrote: | | Quote: | | I started to see something, though: There is a connection between chessed and happiness. The families that do more chessed are happier. The families that are selfish are mean!!!!! |
As someone who would love to have guests but isn't a good coper under even normal conditions, I find your post extrememly hurtfull and offensive.
I'm not selfish. I wish I could give more of myself but when I try to, I plotz and my family has to pay the consequences.
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This amother, who says you aren't doing chessed? It sounds like you are doing 100% chessed with your own family by doing the best for them.  |
Shalhevet, overwhelming yourself is not a good idea. But who said having guests needs to be overwhelming? Imagine if Avraham Avinu and Sara decided not to have guests because it was overwhelming and Sarah was too depressed about not having kids.
I find the shabbos meals run a lot more smoothly when we have guests, and my kids behave better.
Maybe people need to cut down on on how much food they are serving on shabbos as well. people seem to think it you HAVE to have fish, 7 salads, soup, chicken or meat and several side dishes. Sure its overwhelming when you make so many different dishes. But guess what, make less! most people can't eat that much. Skip the soup or fish, make one salad, 1 or 2 dips if you like them, a main dish and one side. and voila.
And when you do invite guests, make sure they are the people who really need a shabbos meal.
I have a friend who never ever invites guest becasue it is too overwhelming. Why is it overwhelming? becuase she is a tidyness freak. she literally follows her kids around tidying up after them. if she could cope with a bit of mess having guests would be no problem.
ruchel, next time you are in the middle of nowhere and you call up chabad and they can't host you would you be upset? You've got upset with people for a lot less then that. |
I'm the amother shalhevet was quoting that is finding it hard
I don't make a tonne of food, what you described as ideal is pretty much what I do and I buy desert. My kids are mostly big, only one makes a mess and the others help to clean up and yep when I do invite guests they are people that need a shabbos meal. I'm not a neat freak but I do want my house lookin reasonably respectable when the guests arrive:what.
It's all still hard for me.
but I apologize, I think I've hijacked this thread so we better bet back on track with the OPs dilema. I merely wanted to respond to the amother calling people who don't invite her selfish and mean.
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Tue, Jun 17 2008, 11:43 am  Clarissa |
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