WWYD - Have an "Open Sukkah" or Not? Need to decid

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

WWYD - Have an "Open Sukkah" or Not? Need to decide TODAY.

So while we have always had an "open sukkah", last year we were officially part of the community's "Kol Dichfin" open Sukkahs. http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=38156

Kol Dichfin was started about 20 years ago, I believe lillui nishmas a child that was niftar.

We happily signed up last year, were given a bottle of mashke and a check for refreshments, and sign. We spent much more then the check - we went through a case of seltzer every night, and we bought cases of pretzels, sandwich cookies, and chips, which we spread out over the days of chol hamoed.

Let me state unequivocally, we had LARGE signs, on HOT pink oaktag, in English, Hebrew, Yiddish, Spanish & French, asking people to PLEASE CLEAN UP AFTER THEMSELVES.

After the first night, we saw the sukkah was trashed. So we did not put any more mashke in the sukkah, thinking that was the problem.

That wasn't the problem. EVERY morning we came out and the sukkah was trashed - food all over the tables, trash every where, it was a pig sty. We tried dragging in the garbage cans and recycling cans into the sukkah (even though this is halachically a problem) and still nothing changed. Every morning we had to spend 30 minutes cleaning up.

So our situation is that while we want the mitzvah of opening our sukkah to everyone, we really don't want to be the janitorial crew for everyone. My kids will be with their bio-dad chol hamoed so I can't ask them to help clean up. My DH's chronic back injury has flared up and he also can't help. So the onus will fall completely on me. And I have to go to work Monday-Wednesday of Chol Hamoed (full-time in Manhattan). Which means getting up early to clean up every day.

My DH's concern is that the sukkah will get trashed, he won't be able to help, and the full work of cleaning up will fall on me. He is worried about me getting overwhelmed/overworked between regular work, hosting our own guests for dinner, making food for yomtov, etc. He doesn't want me to get burned out. (and he's right, I think I'm superwoman)

I REALLLLLLLY have a hard time saying no in general. I reallllllly want to have the mitzvah. But nobody is excited about cleaning up the mess every morning. I spoke to the guy who organizes it every year and he said they've been doing it for 20 years and every year their own personal sukkah gets trashed no matter what they do.

(Personally, I think this is so incredibly sad. I can not pin blame on any one group of people who use the sukkah, because I'm not sitting there the whole night supervising and I have no clue who is leaving the mess. But I'm guessing people who leave a mess, just think there is no one watching so why bother cleaning up. Or they are so drunk they don't realize they're leaving a mess. I don't know - I generally follow the girl scout law - leave it better then you find it.)

Regardless, we have to give the kol dichfin people a response TODAY, Sunday. What do the imamothers think?

PS - we will be in a different apartment next year, no guarantees we will be able to do this again next year (our landlord gave us notice that when our lease ends they intend to renovate into a 1 family house).
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Diamond Member Joined: Dec 26 2006 Posts: 4316

Edited

Executive Member Joined: Jan 25 2009 Posts: 328

I am very into guest and open sukkah... but based on your situation it seems that you should give it a break. chesed starts at home with your family/husband/yourself. if youre gonna be a wreck then its not worth it!

small questions though:
do you think that if you dont provide food they wont make a mess?
is there a nearby sukkah with a kol dichfin sign?

if theres no nearby sukkah and you dont provide food then it might be nice to have the sign for people who just need to stop and take a drink(from their own bottle). if theres another sukkah nearby then theres no need for you to go out of your way. whoever needs a small drink could just go to the next one.

hatzlacha with your decision. may hashem give you the koach to fulfill all your heart's desires!

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

Executive Member Joined: Jan 25 2009 Posts: 328

never did the kol dichfin idea so dont know how it really works. can you close it/lock it after you go to bed?
btw ikwym by those up late...

Moderator Joined: Dec 18 2008 Posts: 3612

If you didn't put out any food but just had the sukkah available (say, with only water) - what would happen?

simple solution - lock it at 11pm. So it is availiable for families but not for late night partiers.

Gold Member Joined: Oct 20 2010 Posts: 1677

I think you should not do it. I am one of those people who can never say no. Not because I have a hard time turning people down but because I like to open my home and succah to people.
The mitzva of the Yom Tov is to be Happy. You are setting yourself up for one hard nisayon. I was in CH, you can always find a succah. Wait for the year you have a happy group of troupers who want to clean up with you. I know some years my kids would help happily.
You can't do everything.

(Is this the overworked part of me talking........I am so exhausted now!! Laughing

)

Gold Member Joined: Oct 20 2010 Posts: 1677

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

Gold Member Joined: Oct 20 2010 Posts: 1677

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 23 2008 Posts: 9074

Never in a million years! Course, to get to ours now they'd have to shimmy up the fire escape. But I wouldn't be interested in cleaning up Puke

bottles, food, cigarette stubs & assorted other debris.

Our "guests" AKA freeloaders have no respect for us as it is...why would I subject myself to that? Besides, I have plenty of invited guests (& people my kids bring along) so I'm good for Succos! Wink

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

Diamond Member Joined: Dec 28 2005 Posts: 4663

I am really shocked that this goes on.

[Side point - you can NEVER leave unattended alcohol on your property. You could be personally liable should anything happen as a result.]

But beyond the fact that you have to clean up such a mess on a daily basis...how can anyone let their Sukkah be "trashed?" What a major bizayon. I know that Chabad is very makpid on this - for that reason I believe (per what I read on this site) they don't decorate nor sleep in the Sukkah (although of course other groups paskin differently). Given all that, I cannot imagine how it would be permitted to open up your Sukkah if it will mean such bizayon. And I'm sorry that that's the case; I know your intentions are really in the right place.

My opinion on the matter...

We live in an building, and don't have our own sukkah. We've thought about trying to create a building sukkah, but it hasn't happened yet. So we're dependent upon our shul sukkah and the kindness of friends.

So ..... no. I wouldn't do it if I were you. You've been generous, and its been thrown in your face time and time again with people leaving you messes that you have neither the time nor the ability to clean up. Be sure to put up a bicycle chain across the door, and leave the lights off, so that revelers who just remember where you live, and don't check the signs, get the idea.

Now, if you want to be really, really nice, let your rav know that you're willing to make your sukkah available for meals to young families before 10 pm, or for lunch only.
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Platinum Member Joined: Jun 30 2009 Posts: 8233

When I read the title of the thread, I actually thought it would be you, because I remembered previous posts of past years about the way your sukkah was treated.

Based on that, my gut instinct is to say NO.

Basically, you're setting up a safe place for partiers [read: unsupervised teens] to get drunk and do who knows what else in your sukkah. I wouldn't do it.
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Diamond Member Joined: May 20 2007 Posts: 2840

I think that doing this would be a chessed to strangers but the opposite to your family, who would have to deal with a stressed overworked mother all Sukkos. I wouldn't do it.

Posted: Sun, Oct 09 2011, 10:29 am Post subject:

Can someone please explain to me what the point is of this? When I read the OP - before I read the link - I thought the idea was to give permission for people who don't have their own sukka to use your sukka for a meal - families or maybe singles living on their own.

Then I read the link and I was shocked. What hachnasas orchim/ mitzva is this at all? People come for a simchas beis hashoeva - I presume there is some central sukka serving drinks and perhaps light refreshments (or people bring their own to drink there). So why would they go "sukka-hopping" going from sukka to sukka all night? Maybe I misunderstood, but what is the mitzva of encouraging people to be out all night? Let them finish the simchas beis hashoeva at 11 or 12 and go home to eat and sleep in their own sukka.

That is without the damage they do - even if they would leave it in pristine condition, why do you need to host people at 3 in the morning?
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Diamond Member Joined: May 20 2007 Posts: 2840

Shalhevet, simchas beis hashoeva goes on all night and there is no central sukkah big enough. So people put up these signs for the merry-makers to come in and have a drink and snack. The fact that the guests leave such a mess is so sad and horrible Sad