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| boymom |
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 Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 8:10 pm Post subject: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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im reading this thread, and honestly im a bit confused about one specific aspect. im not into kiruv at all so I dont know these things but one of the posters mentioned that a shliach or someone in kiruv is supposed to accept all types of pple to the shabbos table, including non jews- potential converts.
I remember learning that your supposed to "push away" (not physically...  ) pple trying to convert. your not supposed to welcome them in to the community unless they beg and beg . then u know theyre sincere and they are welcomed with open arms.
so im just wondering about what pple here say and what I learned yrs ago.... Thanks.
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| sequoia |
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 8:30 pm Post subject: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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You are taking the "push away" a little too literally 
The conversion process demands patience and a willingness to put yourself out there, but no, you absolutely do not need to beg and beg to be invited for shabbos.
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| boymom wrote: | im reading this thread, and honestly im a bit confused about one specific aspect. im not into kiruv at all so I dont know these things but one of the posters mentioned that a shliach or someone in kiruv is supposed to accept all types of pple to the shabbos table, including non jews- potential converts.
I remember learning that your supposed to "push away" (not physically... ) pple trying to convert. your not supposed to welcome them in to the community unless they beg and beg . then u know theyre sincere and they are welcomed with open arms.
so im just wondering about what pple here say and what I learned yrs ago.... Thanks. |
I learnt the same.
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| zaq |
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| sequoia wrote: | You are taking the "push away" a little too literally
The conversion process demands patience and a willingness to put yourself out there, but no, you absolutely do not need to beg and beg to be invited for shabbos. |
It's the beis din that turns away a candidate three times, not the Jewish community at large, and that's near the end of the process for most, after the person has already studied for some time. We don't actively proselytize, but if a person is already studying for conversion leshem shamayim, of course we include them in our social/religious activities. From a book you can learn that it is forbidden to switch lights on and off on Shabbat, but how does one learn the traditions involved in lighting candles, making kiddush, singing zemiros? How do they learn about using a blech, let alone where to buy such a thing? How do they learn how to dress, by which I don't mean covering elbows and knees but the general style that will allow them to fit in and not look like an obvious "furriner" or sociology student infiltrating the community in order to write a book ? the integration into the community has to begin long before the dunking in the mikvah. Tevilah is the culmination of a long, long process of absorption, not the beginning of it.
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 9:58 pm Post subject: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| I'm sorry that you were upset by this experience, OP. You seem to put a lot of effort in your work, and this sort of episode can be frustrating to the best of us. It sounds like you do a great job of making your shabbos table special, which is probably why this young man is a regular. You may have overestimated, however, his degree of understanding what is and what is not okay in your home. It may help to have a chat with him clarifying that if he wishes to bring a friend who isn't Jewish or he is not sure is Jewish (and the reason he wants to bring him/her does NOT matter) he should just give you a heads-up and you'll let him know when it's ok for you. Then work out some arrangement where everyone feels welcome. I'm sure he'll be understanding, and his friend(s) will have an opportunity to meet you and experience the warmth of your family in a way that you also feel comfortable with.
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| zaq wrote: | | sequoia wrote: | You are taking the "push away" a little too literally
The conversion process demands patience and a willingness to put yourself out there, but no, you absolutely do not need to beg and beg to be invited for shabbos. |
It's the beis din that turns away a candidate three times, not the Jewish community at large, and that's near the end of the process for most, after the person has already studied for some time. We don't actively proselytize, but if a person is already studying for conversion leshem shamayim, of course we include them in our social/religious activities. From a book you can learn that it is forbidden to switch lights on and off on Shabbat, but how does one learn the traditions involved in lighting candles, making kiddush, singing zemiros? How do they learn about using a blech, let alone where to buy such a thing? How do they learn how to dress, by which I don't mean covering elbows and knees but the general style that will allow them to fit in and not look like an obvious "furriner" or sociology student infiltrating the community in order to write a book ? the integration into the community has to begin long before the dunking in the mikvah. Tevilah is the culmination of a long, long process of absorption, not the beginning of it. |
got it. thanks.
but: when a nonjew comes to your shabbos table and u never discussed anything about their matzav with conversion, how do u know they really want to convert? how do u know that theyre even in the process? maybe they just came for a "free meal" or just to observe observant jews? I mean u cant just ask them at the table- hey you! your jewish? no. are you planning to convert?.....
so based on this, isnt it weird to just allow non jews at your shabbos table? its like so intrusive. (sorry- I dont want to insult anybody here, but im just trying to understand this)
If the nonjew has no intentions of becoming jewish, why should they be permitted to be at the shabbos table, there is nothing for them to learn there, or no need for them to "get the feel of yiddishkeit". arent they supposed to be at least a little bit "pushed away" so that they shouldnt want to convert? after all, we arent supposed to encourage conversion, or are we?
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| MaBelleVie |
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| boymom wrote: | im reading this thread, and honestly im a bit confused about one specific aspect. im not into kiruv at all so I dont know these things but one of the posters mentioned that a shliach or someone in kiruv is supposed to accept all types of pple to the shabbos table, including non jews- potential converts.
I remember learning that your supposed to "push away" (not physically... ) pple trying to convert. your not supposed to welcome them in to the community unless they beg and beg . then u know theyre sincere and they are welcomed with open arms.
so im just wondering about what pple here say and what I learned yrs ago.... Thanks. |
The "push away" part is for the rabbanim on the bais din to take care of. Everyone else who has the fortune of assisting someone in the process of conversion should be nothing but warm, welcoming and non-judgmental.
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| MaBelleVie |
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| boymom wrote: | got it. thanks.
but: when a nonjew comes to your shabbos table and u never discussed anything about their matzav with conversion, how do u know they really want to convert? how do u know that theyre even in the process? maybe they just came for a "free meal" or just to observe observant jews? I mean u cant just ask them at the table- hey you! your jewish? no. are you planning to convert?.....
so based on this, isnt it weird to just allow non jews at your shabbos table? its like so intrusive. (sorry- I dont want to insult anybody here, but im just trying to understand this)
If the nonjew has no intentions of becoming jewish, why should they be permitted to be at the shabbos table, there is nothing for them to learn there, or no need for them to "get the feel of yiddishkeit". arent they supposed to be at least a little bit "pushed away" so that they shouldnt want to convert? after all, we arent supposed to encourage conversion, or are we? |
What's the difference? Unless they are coming as spectators viewing a scene for comic relief, at the very least you are making a kiddush Hashem. Maybe because of your Shabbos table they will have a positive view of Jews for the rest of their lives. Maybe they will be more understanding of a friend or relative who is adamant about dating only Jews, which they think is ridiculous.
Judaism is not something so easy to fall into that you need to worry about someone deciding to convert because of your Shabbos meal. If they decide to do it, it will be under the very watchful eye of rabbanim. They will not be converted unless they are doing so for the right reasons. Again, this is something for the rabbanim on the bais din to decide, and it's really not relevant for anyone they meet along the way. Our job as laypeople is to make a kiddush Hashem and treat them as anyone else.
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 10:21 pm Post subject: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| I don't think their was any indication in this particular case about the girl considering conversion. seems she just came to hang out in a nice place. in that case the op has legitimate concerns with halacha as it pertains to entertaining non jews at your meal.
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 21 2011, 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| MaBelleVie wrote: | | boymom wrote: | got it. thanks.
but: when a nonjew comes to your shabbos table and u never discussed anything about their matzav with conversion, how do u know they really want to convert? how do u know that theyre even in the process? maybe they just came for a "free meal" or just to observe observant jews? I mean u cant just ask them at the table- hey you! your jewish? no. are you planning to convert?.....
so based on this, isnt it weird to just allow non jews at your shabbos table? its like so intrusive. (sorry- I dont want to insult anybody here, but im just trying to understand this)
If the nonjew has no intentions of becoming jewish, why should they be permitted to be at the shabbos table, there is nothing for them to learn there, or no need for them to "get the feel of yiddishkeit". arent they supposed to be at least a little bit "pushed away" so that they shouldnt want to convert? after all, we arent supposed to encourage conversion, or are we? |
What's the difference? Unless they are coming as spectators viewing a scene for comic relief, at the very least you are making a kiddush Hashem. Maybe because of your Shabbos table they will have a positive view of Jews for the rest of their lives. Maybe they will be more understanding of a friend or relative who is adamant about dating only Jews, which they think is ridiculous.
Judaism is not something so easy to fall into that you need to worry about someone deciding to convert because of your Shabbos meal. If they decide to do it, it will be under the very watchful eye of rabbanim. They will not be converted unless they are doing so for the right reasons. Again, this is something for the rabbanim on the bais din to decide, and it's really not relevant for anyone they meet along the way. Our job as laypeople is to make a kiddush Hashem and treat them as anyone else. |
ok. good point there. I'll bear that in mind when the opportunity knocks on my door....
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| Depressed |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 22 2011, 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| took the words rt out of my mouth boymom
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 22 2011, 11:50 am Post subject: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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On the wine point, mevushal is required for a Jew who is not shomer Shabbat the same as for a non-Jew, so if you're in kiruv you shouldn't have any non-mevushal wine anyway.
On the halachic aspects of having a non-Jew at the table, I'm fairly confident that it's only a problem to, for example, KNOWINGLY teach a non-Jew Torah. The frum school in Indianapolis has a lot of kids who are "Jewish" only by Conservative or Reform principles; either bad conversion of the mother or mother not Jewish at all. And if I remember correctly, they shield the kodesh teachers from knowing which kids are which and it's okay.
I understand feeling betrayed by the deceit of someone you thought you could trust. But I think that's as far as it goes -- the underlying offense really wasn't that bad.
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 22 2011, 11:55 am Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| DovDov wrote: | | On the wine point, mevushal is required for a Jew who is not shomer Shabbat the same as for a non-Jew, so if you're in kiruv you shouldn't have any non-mevushal wine anyway. |
Other rabbanim disagree because you can marry the children of the non shomer shabbat Jew.
Other rabbanim disagree because nowadays not keeping shabbat is not quite a sign of removing oneself from the people.
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 22 2011, 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Depressed wrote: | | took the words rt out of my mouth boymom |
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| sequoia |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 22 2011, 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| DovDov wrote: |
On the halachic aspects of having a non-Jew at the table, I'm fairly confident that it's only a problem to, for example, KNOWINGLY teach a non-Jew Torah. The frum school in Indianapolis has a lot of kids who are "Jewish" only by Conservative or Reform principles; either bad conversion of the mother or mother not Jewish at all. And if I remember correctly, they shield the kodesh teachers from knowing which kids are which and it's okay.
|
Fascinating.
Now, what happens if someone mentions that their mother is not Jewish, either in class or in a conversation with friends which a teacher overheard?
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| MaBelleVie |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 22 2011, 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dont know what he was thinking! |
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| sequoia wrote: | | DovDov wrote: |
On the halachic aspects of having a non-Jew at the table, I'm fairly confident that it's only a problem to, for example, KNOWINGLY teach a non-Jew Torah. The frum school in Indianapolis has a lot of kids who are "Jewish" only by Conservative or Reform principles; either bad conversion of the mother or mother not Jewish at all. And if I remember correctly, they shield the kodesh teachers from knowing which kids are which and it's okay.
|
Fascinating.
Now, what happens if someone mentions that their mother is not Jewish, either in class or in a conversation with friends which a teacher overheard? |
I believe that R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt'l gave a psak that if someone is teaching Jews and a non-Jew joins in, uninvited, it's ok- because the focus is teaching the Jews. Obviously with someone intending to convert there's even less of an issue.
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