Question about reform conversions?

many people these days 'covert' the reform way. for example, a Jewish person wants to marry a non - jew and the non jew is not a Jew in his soul in the way that a Jew who converts orthodoxly and halachically is. but, the Jewish person insists they convert somehow therefore they convert reform, to suit their needs.

of course if it the man who is the non Jew and converts then this does not apply, the children are Jewish anyway and theoretically there was no need for the woman to make him convert anyway unless he was to do it orthodoxly because HE really felt it.

but if it is the woman (ie the mother) who converts, reform, do the children grow up believing that they are Jewish despite knowing that halachically they are NOT Jews? for example, now children from families of mothers who converted reform can go to JFS in london the biggest Jewish school in Europe and be educated Jewishly and amongst other boys and girls from the same family situation AND halachically Jewish kids.

And so?
If the kids want to marry orthodox then they have to have a second conversion, it's well known. If they don't? And they marry other reform? Well then, what's the problem for them?
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"Olam Chessed Yiboneh", Tehilim 89.

Reform accepts patrilineal descent. So the non-Jewish parent need not convert. The child is Jewish is s/he is raised ONLY Jewish (not dual faith, going to church and temple) and takes affirmative steps to be Jewish (bar/bat mitzvah). Interestingly, that can mean that a child who is Jewish by O definition (child of a Jewish mother and non-Jewish father) would not be considered Jewish by R definition (raise with dual religion).

Do they know that O don't accept patrilineal descent? I assume that a lot do. That O don't accept their conversions? Maybe. But they don't care. Remember, its not that they think that the O have it right, but don't want to do it that way. They think that the O are wrong, and they are right.
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Executive Member Joined: Feb 23 2011 Posts: 429

It is a tremendous problem, becuase by the third or fourth generation, it will be impossible to know that these children are not Jewish. What will that do to the Yichus of Klal Yisroel?

I know a very nice man who wanted to marry a Jewish woman. He met a lovely young women withen another Jewish community and they got married in her conservative shul. He bought her back to his hometown where he attended an orthodox shul. Only then did he find out that since her mother underwent conservative conversion she, and therefore his children, are not considered halachically Jewish.

He is not frum or interested in becoming frum, so giyur kehalacha is out of the question.

It's pretty sad. Cases like these are more and more common.

I don't quite agree with Barbara. I think many young people raised in Reform or Conservative communities have no idea that patrilineal descent or non-orthodox conversion aren't accepted in traditional (masorti) or Orthodox communities. Others might have heard something vague, but don't really get the implications for them personally.

Or they've heard something more specific, but don't understand how much of the Jewish world sees their status as problematic.

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48223

I'm surprised that it's a problem. If someone converts, they have to keep all themitzvos. Doesn't everyone know "who keeps what" in the family ?

Posted: Fri, Jun 24 2011, 12:49 am Post subject:

Posted: Fri, Jun 24 2011, 1:50 am Post subject:

I'll briefly share my personal experience. My mother had a "reform conversion" after she met my father, who is Jewish. I was raised as a reform Jew and I grew up my entire childhood thinking I was Jewish. When I went to college, I found out through the Chabad on my campus that I wasn't halachically Jewish. I was very upset for a long time after I found that out. After I graduated college I decided to do a an orthodox conversion and now I'm halachically Jewish. I have never felt like a convert, I feel like a BT, since I grew up always thinking I was Jewish.

It's strange how fate works. I'm the only grandchild of my (Jewish) grandparents who will have Jewish kids. My aunt (my dad's sister) who is Jewish married a non-Jew. Her 2 sons are both halachically Jewish, but are married to non-Jewish girls, so won't have Jewish kids.

"and the non jew is not a Jew in his soul in the way that a Jew who converts orthodoxly and halachically is"

There are many, many orthodox converts who are on their second or more conversion, having converted Orthodox after converting reform or conservative. Many of those converts are a "Jew in their soul" but have been scared off Orthodoxy, because they think it's not for them, or because of what they were told about Orthodoxy, or because the bad behavior of one or more Orthodox Jews turned them off to Orthodoxy. The yearning for a halachic life and exposure to kind Orthodox Jews who show them the beauty of mitzvot helps to lead them on the right path.

I'm not saying you need to accept them as Jewish, but instead be nice and hopefully inspire them to convert halachically through setting a good, kind example of Orthodoxy.

That is the way I would look at these converts, and let Hashem take care of the rest.

As for whether or not they know their conversion won't be accepted by the Orthodox, many do but it's not really a concern for them. They are accepted in their own community and if they don't interact with Orthodox Jews their non-acceptance has no bearing on their life at all.

I have lots and lots of family that this applies to, and I don't think they have a clue, nor do they probably care, that Orthodox Jews don't view them as Jewish. A few years ago, my mom wanted me to attend the Bat Mitzvah of one such cousin, and I asked my mom, "Did (cousin's mother) even have a conversion?" My mom's response was that she thought so, she wasn't sure. It certainly wasn't anything more than reform if she bothered. Those kids have been brought up having Bat Mitzvahs and Bar Mitzvahs and Shabbat dinners and consider themselves Jewish. And the people that they associate with consider them Jewish as well. It doesn't affect them very much that the Orthodox world doesn't consider them Jewish, and it may never really affect them. And they certainly observe more than my halachically Jewish cousin who was raised Catholic and has two of the most WASP-y kids I've ever met.

For whatever it's worth, the majority of the Jewish world doesn't really care, or know, what the Orthodox world thinks about their "jewishness."