Kosher store selling non'kosher products, WWYD?

I recently bought a packet of sweets from a local Kosher store which were similar but a different brand to the ones I usually buy.

When I got them home I was checking the ingredients and noticed that E120 (non-kosher food colouring made from beetles) was listed.

So... I took the sweets back to the store, waited until there were no customers in there (so as to avoid embarassing the owner) and politely told him I just bought these sweets and noticed they have a non-kosher ingredient. I mainly wanted him to be aware so that he could withdraw the sweets from sale but getting my money back would also have been nice!

Anyway, he totally got angry and yelled at me! He said it is kosher and that there are kosher forms of E120 as well as non-kosher ones just like there is kosher gelatine as well as non-kosher. He was very rude to me, even shouting, he was so angry!

I was pretty sure it is not possible to get kosher E120 as if the colour was made differently it would have a different number but I did ask my Rabbi who confirmed it wasn't kosher.

What would you do in my situation? There are many Jews in my city who would never think to check the packet of an item from a kosher store, assuming that everything sold there is OK to eat. There was a hechsure on the packet but it was not one I am familiar with and my Rav hadn't heard of it either.

Diamond Member Joined: Jun 24 2008 Posts: 3345

Does the owner have a certificate that all the products being sold are kosher? If he does, I'd alert the kashrut agency that certifies him.

I think that when it comes to grocery shopping, the consumer must be aware and shop with their kashrut standards in mind.
I find myself looking for kosher signs on foods I KNOW are kosher. Just to confirm it.

Gold Member Joined: Jul 02 2010 Posts: 1416

Its the job of the mashgiach, not the store-owner to be aware of all the minutia of kosher ingredients. If this is really a kosher-store, then he has a mashgiach you should speak to. Otherwise - its no different than the regular supermarket where you have to check each package for a hechsher.

Diamond Member Joined: Jun 09 2009 Posts: 3332

I don't think Kosher groceries usually have a Mashgiach. They get in packaged food and sell it as is. And I know that people who shop in Kosher stores do not check packages for Hechsherim unless they're stricter with Kashrus than the store is.

I once found a product without a Hechsher in a Kosher store. I showed it to the cashier, who nodded politely but seemed to think I fell from the moon. I don't know if it was removed from the shelves or not, but I'm guessing not. (It was Poland Spring distilled water. According to R' Dovid Feinstien, spring water does not need a Hechsher, but distilled water does because the distilling process could include Treifos. Poland Spring has the OU on their spring water but not on their distilled water. I'm guessing he thought I was a crazy lady complaining about Treif water and forgot about it the minute I walked out the door.)

I do not know who is supposed to be responsible for these things, but I would think that no Frum store owner would want this on his Cheshbon. He is kind of tricking people into eating Treif, which makes him a Choteh U'Machati Acheirim.

Active Poster Joined: Jun 09 2011 Posts: 29

I have never in my life been to a Jewish grocery shop - in any country - that has a mashgiach!
And of course people have to be told, why would you allow another jew to be harmed by eating spiritual poison??? if you knew there was poison in something at your local store, would you not tell people? it's exactly the same (worse actually!) with non-kosher food!
Unless of course there is a Rabbi who knows that it actually is kosher, but didn't sound that way.

Diamond Member Joined: Aug 03 2007 Posts: 4449

A kosher store is not like a restaurant, that has a hechsher and a mashgiach. Kosher stores generally don't have any supervision. The person buying OR even the retailer may have thought we'll substitte X brand (kosher) for another brand Y (not kosher) of the same product. Generally though, if it is not a huuuge store and especially if the owner is frum, he is careful.... But in any circumstance, you should check if you taking a product you haven't had before.

From your post I deduce that you are in Europe. In Europe things work differently than in the states.... anyway there isn't much you can do other than warn the owner and your friends to be careful.

This is a total tangent, but what's the deal with kosher store managers being really rude? Yes, it's a sweeping generallization, but has anyone else noticed this?

Maybe it's grocery store managers in general...

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 30 2006 Posts: 2613

There are stores where the entire store is under the supervision of an agency and in that case you can report them to the hashgacha. In Europe that's not usual.

E120 is cochineal/carmine. By definition it's made from beetles and it's treif. I always check, but that was really rude of the manager. It's possible that the product changed, too. Carmine is a "natural" color so they can put "no artificial colors" on the label.

I might put this as a general shaila to a rabbi and see what he says about it, not naming the store. I'd be extra careful shopping there in future though... if I would ever set foot there again after being treated that way.

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 17 2008 Posts: 5069

For all of those who have never heard of a grocery store with a hechsher/mashgiach -- there are certainly several here in Chicago that have them.
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Diamond Member Joined: Aug 03 2007 Posts: 4449

Diamond Member Joined: Aug 03 2007 Posts: 4449

And yes it's an ineresting fact that kosher store owners are often very rude, inconsiderate and not polite (compared to their not kosher store counterparts). I don't know why. Maybe it is because people "have" to buy from them anyways (for kashrut reasons), food for thought most definately.

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 30 2006 Posts: 2613

I have heard an opinion that the beetle-derived red coloring is ok for various reasons. I don't think it's commonly held, but I've heard it.

you do have to check things in the kosher stores. I have told my local manager that a certain product no longer had a hechsher. he hadn't noticed. he was very polite and pulled it from the shelves in front of me.

as for candy, that's a whole other issue. if you notice, many trusted kosher candy companies use a variety of hechsherim, depending on the product. I can assure you, most people in brooklyn do not bother to check paskez candies. check next time folks. they have all different hashgachas. they're not necessarily untrustworthy, btw, but I don't recognize a whole lot of them. it's food for thought. also, I find it disturbing how common certain candies are in the community. I personally get very upset when the guy who gives out pekalach on simchas torah includes ferrara pan candies. (lemon heads, anyone?) that company has a history of changing hashgachas incredibly frequently. granted, it seems to have stuck with one for the past two years, but I have no clue what the shield k is. and I didn't trust them as a kid, due to hashgacha changes every three months. they've always seemed a bit fishy to me. but people buy them, partially because the kosher stores carry them. and they give them out in shul, for shalach manos, everything. I love how kiddushes need to be catered by specific people, but candy distribution is a free-for-all. I had to throw out a whole bunch of ferrara pan candy this purim.

speaking of purim hechsher issues, folks, please be aware that those little liquor bottles are not all kosher. a neighbor of mine gave out non-kosher schnapps for the past two years. please check your hechsherim. even jewish owned liquor stores carry non-kosher stuff. and I am referring to products that are in fact not kosher, not those that bear no symbol but are kosher anyway.

Posted: Mon, Jun 13 2011, 9:26 pm Post subject:

It strikes me as a matter for further learning/discussion. But it does seem as if there are several opinions. A quick look online found the following:

Posted: Mon, Jun 13 2011, 9:28 pm Post subject:

I would tell a local rav. Let him take care of it.

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 17 2008 Posts: 5069

Go back and tell the manager that since he's there are those who permit E120, he surely wouldn't mind if you took out an ad in the [fill in name of local Jewish paper] cautioning all those who shop in [Jewish store] to check the hechsher on the [candy] and to ask their LOR if they use E120.
Make sure to stress that the name of the store will appear, possibly multiple times.

See what he has to say.

I had this issue one time at a kosher market. They were selling frozen items (things like spring rolls and pot stickers) from a company who has maybe 2 or 3 kosher items with good hechsher but the majority is not kosher and has no sort of hechsher. I told the store's mashgiach. He told me I was mistaken. That he spoke to the company and to the kashrus agency that certified the couple items that did have the hechsher and that really it's all kosher. I mentioned to the owner as well, he backed up the mashgiach. Well I contacted the food company and the kashrus agency. The mashgiach was totally wrong. When I walked into the store next a week or two later I noticed those items in question were gone. Maybe others complained as well?