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| Mommy3.5 |
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 Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 1:58 am Post subject: Re: re: DH wants to "pick" the name again!!! |
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| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | drumjj wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Mamushka wrote: | | how about giving two names. One from your side one from his side. | This sounds like a GREAT compromise. |
ive heard that you have to be careful when naming after two different ppl. | Huh? from where did you hear such a thing? I know that my parents as well as myself and all of my siblings, many of my friends and my daughter as well are all named for two different people. |
a family member asked a rav about this issue, he was told its better not to do it, and that it is more of an issue with a boy then girl. Among more chassidish families, its pretty normal not to mix names. It is very rarely done.
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| Ruchel |
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| Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 11:36 am Post subject: Re: re: DH wants to "pick" the name again!!! |
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| Mommy3.5 wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | drumjj wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Mamushka wrote: | | how about giving two names. One from your side one from his side. | This sounds like a GREAT compromise. |
ive heard that you have to be careful when naming after two different ppl. | Huh? from where did you hear such a thing? I know that my parents as well as myself and all of my siblings, many of my friends and my daughter as well are all named for two different people. |
a family member asked a rav about this issue, he was told its better not to do it, and that it is more of an issue with a boy then girl. Among more chassidish families, its pretty normal not to mix names. It is very rarely done. |
I heard the opposite, that it is positive for shalom bayis and honouring more people, and the chassidim I know very often do it.
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| Merrymom |
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| Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: DH wants to "pick" the name again!!! |
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| someoneoutthere wrote: | | Merrymom wrote: | | someoneoutthere wrote: | | life'sgreat wrote: | | realeez wrote: | | While you may have a valid point, I think you are looking at things the wrong way. To me, this whole "taking turns" thing sounds like what I have my kids do when there aren't enough swings at the park and should not be used in a normal marriage. The most important part of marriage is communication. Communicate to your husband the importance of naming after your grandparent - not to honour your family or that you get the next 2 because, hey, he got the first 2- but because you have beautiful memories of that grandparent or s/he exemplified the middah of X which meant a lot to you and you would love to have a connection by naming a child after him/her. Hatzlacha & Bshaah Tova! |
It sounds that way to you because in your circles it isn't an inyan to take turns. In some circles it is.
In fact, my grandfather's father died when he was 3 years old. When his first, a boy, was born, his wife gladly gave 'permission' to give him the first name (there's an inyan for the wife's side to have first choice). He did, but that child died when he was just a few months old. He went to (I think) the Viznitzer Rebbe ZT"L, who told him that he shouldn't have named him after his father, as it was meant to go for the wife. Even if the wife gave permission. Take it for what this is worth, but if this is minhag/inyan in some circles, the OP is right in wanting to keep to it. |
And there are those who, in regard to the "taking turns" say that the husband is the one who goes first. I saw a letter to that effect from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and he continues that the name must be agreed upon by both parents with a full heart, but the preference for "side" should start with the father's side.
So..there are lots of takes on this, all sourced in good places |
Then why did all the imahos name their children and not the avos? |
What does one have to do with the other? One cannot learn out from that that ALL names should then be chosen by the mother, can they?
I just looked up the letter again and the Rebbe actually expands on that exact point.
He says that "When there is no set minhag" the first should go to the father's side. (many sephardim, for example, have a set order of how names are chosen eg. father's father, mother's father, father's father's father, father's mother's father etc.) And a source for that is in the commentary of some Rishonim, such as the Daas Zekeinim, on Breishis 38:5 Where it says that Tamar named her third son Shelah "and he was in Cheziv when she gave birth to him"- that Yehuda was away when the child was born otherwise he'd have been the one to give a name as that was their minhag.
And he continues that one cannot learn from what the passuk says "and he called the name" or "and she called the name" specifically because of the fact that ALL of the shevatim were named by their mothers- should we then infer that naming rights only go to the mother? And there are also times where fathers give names in the Torah, as well as times where it says that both gave the name (Yishmael) or both gave 2 different names (Binyamin).
The Rebbe then suggests a reason why the shevatim were all davka named by their mothers- naming a child is has its roots in nevua and the Imahos, as chazal say in Bereishis Rabba, were all nevios and had greater degree of nevua than the avos.
Again, the suggestion of naming "rights" going to the father first is in the absence of a real family minhag. And has its source in Rishonim. |
That's exactly what we should infer. We can learn everything else from the avos and imahos but if it doesn't jive with our male chauvinist attitudes then we can say it doesn't count?! When a man carries a baby for nine months and nurses it and wakes up in middle of the night to feed it for a year or two ad finitum (sp?) then he has "rights". In the meantime it's her choice imho. Of course in a loving marriage you wouldn't choose a name that the other didn't agree to, to do so it just lacking in basic midos tovos/t.
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| life'sgreat |
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| Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: re: DH wants to "pick" the name again!!! |
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| Mommy3.5 wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | drumjj wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Mamushka wrote: | | how about giving two names. One from your side one from his side. | This sounds like a GREAT compromise. |
ive heard that you have to be careful when naming after two different ppl. | Huh? from where did you hear such a thing? I know that my parents as well as myself and all of my siblings, many of my friends and my daughter as well are all named for two different people. |
a family member asked a rav about this issue, he was told its better not to do it, and that it is more of an issue with a boy then girl. Among more chassidish families, its pretty normal not to mix names. It is very rarely done. |
Actually, many chassidim combine names. I'm named after two grandmothers, so are some of my siblings named after two people.
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| ora_43 |
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| Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 3:30 pm Post subject: re: DH wants to "pick" the name again!!! |
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Lifesgreat, you're saying OP's dh's siblings will have kids, but she didn't say he's the oldest and that's why he's the only one with kids, she said "DH comes from a small family and is the only one married." I wouldn't assume that her dh's siblings are definitely going to have kids and definitely going to give the names (there are also those who know that even if their siblings iy"H marry and have children, they are unlikely to name for deceased relatives).
OP, I agree with previous posters who suggested talking it out and not turning it into a "whose turn" or "what's fair." If all things are equal then taking turns makes sense, but sometimes all things are not equal.
And in any case, that kind of thinking (I did X so now he owes me Y) isn't so healthy in marriage IMHO.
That doesn't mean you have to give in, but I think it makes sense to talk it over and consider your dh's reasoning. Not reasoning like, "well my grandparents.... so it's only fair that...." Forget fair and talk about what it would mean to each of you to name for a particular person (were you close to them? do you know it would have meant a lot to them? etc).
And if you really can't work it out, and it means too much to you to give in, then talk it out with a third party.
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| life'sgreat |
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| Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: re: DH wants to "pick" the name again!!! |
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| ora_43 wrote: | Lifesgreat, you're saying OP's dh's siblings will have kids, but she didn't say he's the oldest and that's why he's the only one with kids, she said "DH comes from a small family and is the only one married." I wouldn't assume that her dh's siblings are definitely going to have kids and definitely going to give the names (there are also those who know that even if their siblings iy"H marry and have children, they are unlikely to name for deceased relatives).
. |
You're right. I must have missed that. I still think that having given him two times should be sufficient for her to have the zechus to name after her own grandparent. JMVHO.
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| someoneoutthere |
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| Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: DH wants to "pick" the name again!!! |
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| Merrymom wrote: | | someoneoutthere wrote: | | Merrymom wrote: | | someoneoutthere wrote: | | life'sgreat wrote: | | realeez wrote: | | While you may have a valid point, I think you are looking at things the wrong way. To me, this whole "taking turns" thing sounds like what I have my kids do when there aren't enough swings at the park and should not be used in a normal marriage. The most important part of marriage is communication. Communicate to your husband the importance of naming after your grandparent - not to honour your family or that you get the next 2 because, hey, he got the first 2- but because you have beautiful memories of that grandparent or s/he exemplified the middah of X which meant a lot to you and you would love to have a connection by naming a child after him/her. Hatzlacha & Bshaah Tova! |
It sounds that way to you because in your circles it isn't an inyan to take turns. In some circles it is.
In fact, my grandfather's father died when he was 3 years old. When his first, a boy, was born, his wife gladly gave 'permission' to give him the first name (there's an inyan for the wife's side to have first choice). He did, but that child died when he was just a few months old. He went to (I think) the Viznitzer Rebbe ZT"L, who told him that he shouldn't have named him after his father, as it was meant to go for the wife. Even if the wife gave permission. Take it for what this is worth, but if this is minhag/inyan in some circles, the OP is right in wanting to keep to it. |
And there are those who, in regard to the "taking turns" say that the husband is the one who goes first. I saw a letter to that effect from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and he continues that the name must be agreed upon by both parents with a full heart, but the preference for "side" should start with the father's side.
So..there are lots of takes on this, all sourced in good places |
Then why did all the imahos name their children and not the avos? |
What does one have to do with the other? One cannot learn out from that that ALL names should then be chosen by the mother, can they?
I just looked up the letter again and the Rebbe actually expands on that exact point.
He says that "When there is no set minhag" the first should go to the father's side. (many sephardim, for example, have a set order of how names are chosen eg. father's father, mother's father, father's father's father, father's mother's father etc.) And a source for that is in the commentary of some Rishonim, such as the Daas Zekeinim, on Breishis 38:5 Where it says that Tamar named her third son Shelah "and he was in Cheziv when she gave birth to him"- that Yehuda was away when the child was born otherwise he'd have been the one to give a name as that was their minhag.
And he continues that one cannot learn from what the passuk says "and he called the name" or "and she called the name" specifically because of the fact that ALL of the shevatim were named by their mothers- should we then infer that naming rights only go to the mother? And there are also times where fathers give names in the Torah, as well as times where it says that both gave the name (Yishmael) or both gave 2 different names (Binyamin).
The Rebbe then suggests a reason why the shevatim were all davka named by their mothers- naming a child is has its roots in nevua and the Imahos, as chazal say in Bereishis Rabba, were all nevios and had greater degree of nevua than the avos.
Again, the suggestion of naming "rights" going to the father first is in the absence of a real family minhag. And has its source in Rishonim. |
That's exactly what we should infer. We can learn everything else from the avos and imahos but if it doesn't jive with our male chauvinist attitudes then we can say it doesn't count?! When a man carries a baby for nine months and nurses it and wakes up in middle of the night to feed it for a year or two ad finitum (sp?) then he has "rights". In the meantime it's her choice imho. Of course in a loving marriage you wouldn't choose a name that the other didn't agree to, to do so it just lacking in basic midos tovos/t. |
Did you miss the point that BOTH PARENTS NEED TO AGREE ON A NAME? If I wasn't clear, which it seems I probably wasn't, first meant first child then the mother's side for second child, third father's etc. Not that with every child daddy gets first dibs on names and if he doesn't have any then it goes to mommy. That second version is most definitely NOT what's being suggested. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
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| realeez |
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| Posted: Mon, May 09 2011, 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: re: DH wants to "pick" the name again!!! |
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| ora_43 wrote: | Lifesgreat, you're saying OP's dh's siblings will have kids, but she didn't say he's the oldest and that's why he's the only one with kids, she said "DH comes from a small family and is the only one married." I wouldn't assume that her dh's siblings are definitely going to have kids and definitely going to give the names (there are also those who know that even if their siblings iy"H marry and have children, they are unlikely to name for deceased relatives).
OP, I agree with previous posters who suggested talking it out and not turning it into a "whose turn" or "what's fair." If all things are equal then taking turns makes sense, but sometimes all things are not equal.
And in any case, that kind of thinking (I did X so now he owes me Y) isn't so healthy in marriage IMHO.
That doesn't mean you have to give in, but I think it makes sense to talk it over and consider your dh's reasoning. Not reasoning like, "well my grandparents.... so it's only fair that...." Forget fair and talk about what it would mean to each of you to name for a particular person (were you close to them? do you know it would have meant a lot to them? etc).
And if you really can't work it out, and it means too much to you to give in, then talk it out with a third party. |
Someone agrees with me! <faint>
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