Don't know what expectations to give DD

Ok, please don't flame me for writing this. This is a post about figuring out my family's and my religious identity.

Dh and I grew up somewhere between Conservative and MO. Slowly we've become more religious. Right now I think we fall somewhere between MO and plain Frum.

6YO DD goes to a regular yeshiva day school where the majority of kids come from MO families.

Recently she told me she has a boyfriend. Ok, obviously she doesn't know what that means. Her school is mixed until 3rd grade and then boys and girls are in separate classes. She thinks it's just the person who you play with the most. Which I'm fine with. I mean, she's 6. She has been asking me lately what else boyfriends and girlfriends do, and I've been trying to stay aloof about it, telling her that they are just very good friends who have lots of fun together.

But I've been wondering, what happens when she does start thinking of boys that way? I mean, she'll have contact with boys throughout her life because we're not that insulated. We have friends who have kids of both genders. Even though her school is sort of separated academically, they still have lunch together, they still have extracurricular activities together, etc. She will have to deal with boys eventually.

I'm just trying to figure out what kind of expectations I can give DD about relating to boys. I guess part of the problem is that while I know where we are now (in terms of frumkeit) I don't know where we will be when she is a teenager. Will she be allowed to date? from what age? will she be expected to be shomer negiah? or will she be expected to ignore the entire boy situation until she's ready to get married? So I'm having a hard time figuring out what to tell her when it comes to how to behave with boys.

Like, should I tell her to play with girls instead? is that realistic? will it make her life easier? Or should I just ignore it and hope she grows out of this boy-crazy phase by the time she's a teenager? (yeah, I know. Doubtful)

When I ask dh about it, he just says not to worry about it bc it's too early. I just want to know what to tell her so it doesn't come as a shock you know?

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48155

I think you waited too long. If you don't give your children values, you can't expect them to take upon themselves .. lofty ones.

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 01 2009 Posts: 8222

Her daughter is 6...what do you mean its too late?

First, you have to figure out what YOU want from her. Do you want her to date? If you allow her to date, chances are she won't be shomer negiah. She may, but most likely won't.

My mother's rule was always no dating until after HS. It wasn't a big deal to me, but I also knew that if I met someone I wanted to date, I could talk to her and we would reevaluate together.

I was allowed to invite boys over in groups to hang out, but I rarely did. If one boy was over, it was assumed to be in a public area of the house. It really was a rare occurence for me. I had a circle of girlfriends who I had a lot of fun with, so I had little need to fill the space. We did a lot of fun things - snowboarding, playing pool, hiking, bon fires etc.

I was mildly involved in NCSY, had a few friends who were boys, but nothing serious.

But you have to come up with household rules. Set realistic expectations so your daughter can fill them.

Also keep in mind that what her friends do will influence her. So if everyone is dating, chances are she will want to also. If no one is, she probably won't see it as big of a draw.

(I grew up solidly MO)
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Posted: Mon, Feb 07 2011, 11:53 am Post subject:

I think it helps to establish what your own beliefs are before trying to set up rules and plans for your children. It is hard to teach when you are unsure of where you stand.
You are somewhat limited to your child's environment, meaning that if everyone is mixed (even if it's only some of the time) and parties are mixed and it's normal to date...difficult to fight these effects. If you are ok with that, that is one thing. If you are not, maybe your choice in schooling should be reevaluated, especially if you see yourself going forward in religious observance from where you are currently.
The best thing I can suggest is to evaluate where you are, where you want to go, and what you hope for your dd's future. That way, you can better prepare and plan for what you hope the outcome will be. (ie. do you want university or seminary, or both? do you want early marriage to a bachur, or do you want studies first, then regular dating, then eventual marriage to someone MO or other?) What you want to happen is not always the outcome, but if you structure your lives to set things up, there is more of a chance they will happen.

Posted: Mon, Feb 07 2011, 3:17 pm Post subject:

Our school is also mixed thru 3rd grade. They separate for hebrew as of fourth and english as of 7th. My children have had friends of the opposite gender when they were young, but by the time they are in 2nd and 3rd grade they separated themselves. Boys are yucky, so are girls.

If they didnt separate by themselves, their classmates teased them until they did.

I wouldnt worry about it yet.

As for what boyfriends and girlfriends do, they are friends. I would also ask what her boyfriend wants to do-just to make sure all is fine.
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Shanie, they separate by 3rd grade but are encouraged to pair up as early as 4th grade.

OP, you have to have a hashkafa in order to transmit one to your children. I think at age 6 your dd can be told just what you said and when she is older, you may have a more settled idea of how you want her to grow up regarding boy-girl interaction.
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Platinum Member Joined: Mar 12 2009 Posts: 13192

No flame at all. No answers either but at least I can Salut

you for thinking about it now.

We live in an interesting society; read Wendy Shalit's books and (I always get the order wrong) Mystics, Merrymakers (and hey, sometimes I totally forget one of the "m"s; it's an interesting if not controversial book about how insulated girls don't get simpery and put themselves second to boys so easily). And I saw a board book - a board book! - called "My First Valentine."

So good on you for trying to get a mission statement or the equivalent together.
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The righteous praise and honor people for every good quality that is found in them while the wicked seek out faults in others to pull them down, even if they repented those deeds. (Rabbeinu Yonah, from Partners in Kindness)

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 04 2008 Posts: 7930

Okay first of all don't worry about it now!

Second of all, in my experience (in MY experience, okay, so don't flame me!), there is no organic transition between the friendships of elementary school and the bf/gf relationships of high school. Because there's late elementary school/middle school in between, when the opposite sx is "icky."

I think if she's in an MO somewhat co-ed environment, it would be naive to imagine she'd ignore boys entirely. It's possible to form healthy, normal friendships while being aware of boundaries.

For now, please don't tell a six-year-old not to play with boys! She'd just be like, "why?" Totally complicating things for no reason.
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When are boys icky? Only in 2nd and 3rd grade, basically. In 4th or 5th grade start the spin the bottle games and boyfriend/girlfriend awareness, and the boy-girl culture continues on from that point. Having been educated in a co-ed MO school.

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 04 2008 Posts: 7930

In my school (not Jewish) boys and girls were icky from late elementary school until high school.

Silver Member Joined: Nov 23 2007 Posts: 691

Hey OP,

My situation is pretty similar but I don't think it is really a situation. At least not in my mind. My DD doesn't enjoy the dainty stuff. She really likes being outdoors, playing more physical activities. She gets it from me, I think.

Anyway, she has one or two friends whom she enjoys spending time with the most, and they are boys. She has girl friends also but none that are very close. Interestingly she is competitive with the girls but just enjoys being herself with the boys. Our school doesn't seperate out but when she goes to high school she'll go to a girls school.

I can only say for right now that she is getting more attention from other adults who comment and think she is so cute with other said boy. She has picked up that some adults think them a "couple". I certainly don't condone this but she goes to a community school and there levels of mixed observances. I can't be with her 24/7.

When I know the two will be in the same proximity I watch closely to make sure they behave appropriately and I tell her that close or physical contact beyond the norm of a regular 6 yr old is not acceptable. Of course, I tell her in a manner appropriate for her age. I don't make a huge deal out of it.

Similarly, never before having a girl to raise through adulthood, dating, marriage, etc. I'm not sure what our tact will be either when she gets older. But because I value rigorous education and I value a pursuit of a profession regardless of gender, I do want her to learn and know how to interact in the secular world as an adult. THus, somehow I have to get acrossed to her how to maintain her Jewish identity and customs in such an environment. I am one example she'll draw upon. And I would think that we will impart to her about shomer negiah when the time comes. We won't let her date of course until after high school. When I get the feeling that she is getting old enough to actually start becoming attracted to boys, I'll explain to her the differences between boys/girls and the proper way for an observant girl to act and the pitfalls she'll have to avoid. And hopefully I'll instill enough knowledge and she'll retain a good relationship with me during the volatile teenage years that she'll be able to keep the communication lines very open with me. We are MO and have friends with children of varying ages that she'll be in contact with on a frequent basis so we can't insulate her from ever speaking or interacting with a boy. It is just not going to happen.

So, I hope and IYH, it will end up and work out the way we want. We'll see.

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 01 2009 Posts: 8222

Funny about different schools, or maybe cities. In my school, after I had already graduated, a girl in 3rd grade handed out birthday party invitations to all the girls - saying that each had to invite a boy. In my camp, the popular girl went on a date to a deli - at age 10. A new boy in 6th grade was desperate to find a girl who hadn't already been claimed as someone's girlfriend. A boy had a belly dancer at his bar mitzva. Do not ask about the games some kids played in 8th grade.

I was not really involved, just for the record.

But a nice ending is that a surprising number of these kids went on to become mainstream frum and are living normal shomer mitzvos lives today.

Gold Member Joined: Mar 16 2009 Posts: 2291

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 01 2009 Posts: 8222

By the way, we are Chareidi, and our 8 year old son plays on Shabbos with a 7 year old Chareidi female neighbor totally innocently. (There are not many frum families right near us.)

If your dd watches tv, you will not have to explain what a boyfriend is - it will do the job!