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| Ruchel |
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 Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 7:02 am Post subject: Re: re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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| melbee wrote: | Preface: I have not and have no intention to read the other thread on the "male dominated religion" so I apologize if I'm repeating someone there.
| marina wrote: | | Seriously, ladies. Anyone's husband ever been to a shiur where the rav was trying to convince him not to feel bad because he was in a female dominated religion? Anyone ever read an article addressed to men explaining that they are really just as valued in Judaism as the women are and just because they have to be on the lower level of the synagogue and have more commandments to do every day that doesn't mean that they are not as important? Anyone ever read a kiruv article geared towards the secular male Jew explaining that just because he has to daven with a minyan three times a day doesn't mean he's a second-class citizen?. |
Have I heard it firsthand? No. But DH has told me of numerous shiurim where he has been told the value of a woman, and that women are in fact superior to men within this religion. That men have to daven, etc. because it's the only way that they connect to Hashem, and it's how they remember that there is more than a physical world. But women do not have that mitzvah because they are born elevated already, they are already on a higher spiritual plane that men cannot achieve, and they are there permanently! He actually has commented to me that he is sometimes jealous of the connection women have to Hashem and to the spiritual world, and feels that he, and men in general, have to work harder to achieve what we have normally.
You want to call it an easy explanation to keep me passive? Go ahead. At the end of the day I'm content and happy with my situation, and I accept it. And I have sort of an aside question, did we have all these questions and issues of not being alright with our social status before being so inundated with outside society? I'm sure this has been discussed in the other thread, and frankly I don't want to get into it too much here as I don't see it making a huge difference in anyone's opinion, but as a sociology major I know that ideas such as these are not born on their own.
In the end, if someone looks at Judaism from the outside, it will appear sexist. If you want to see it as male dominated, it is easy to do so. I choose to take pride in myself, my family, and my position within it. And to be perfectly honest, I don't want to have to daven, or do any of the things my husband does. I have no connection to it, and doubt making it a mitzvah for me would give me that. But the mitzvot that are mine, that are specific to women, those I have a connection to.
Yes, there are Rabbonim who treat men better than women. Yes, there are individuals that believe the same. But I know many families that believe, and more importantly practice, the opposite. Focus on the bad, and that's all you'll see. And there's lots of it to go around. Again, I choose to find the good, and from it be optimistic.
And OOC why are you (general, not directed at Marina specifically, but at people committed to thinking that women are so put down) commenting here? To have two threads debating the same thing? |
Agreed!
| HindaRochel wrote: | | PinkFridge wrote: | | You know, I think this is kind of moot. The way we're emasculating our boys (and isn't it interesting to see parallels in the world at large - trickle down?) women will be dominant. Maybe in every area but religion but otherwise dominant. |
Physically men are becoming more like women. I would mention the dreaded E word but then I'd get banned for certain. |
I don't see it. (oh and Zola already claimed it and said it was the close end of the civilization... and bh we're still here)
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| ora_43 |
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| Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 7:05 am Post subject: re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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Once a family court has decided money and custody, the only thing the beit din does is watch the husband give his wife a get. It does not get involved in negotiating regarding the get.
Which btw is not any better than going through the batei din, as the secular court system is extremely + openly biased against men. But that's a different story. My point was only that secular law is what allows a man to live with a woman he's not married to - Torah law does not allow it, and IIRC back in the day he would have gotten malkot for that.
A secular man can't just move on with his life if his wife won't take a get. He can't remarry. He's still bears legal responsibility to his wife. Without a divorce settlement, he often has no access to his children, if they had children.
As for frum men - 100 signatures is a lot. I've never heard of a frum man getting those simply because his wife won't take a get, or is demanding more in exchange for taking a get. I've only heard of that being allowed in cases of insanity, or extremely limited mental capacity (eg. the wife is comatose).
If a husband refuses to give a get here in Israel, his driver's license and passport can be taken away, he can face fines, and he can be thrown in jail.
Yes it's still not equal. But I don't get the point of bringing in the rabbinate. They can't make kids mamzerim who aren't, or make kids not be mamzerim if they are. But they do take things like the husband having a girlfriend into consideration during the settlement, they do sometimes take legal measures against men who won't grant a get, and they definitely don't tell men whose wives won't take a get that they can go ahead and remarry.
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| Tablepoetry |
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| Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 7:20 am Post subject: re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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Ora, I am not at all sure you are correct in stating that the Rabbanut doesn't get involved in negotiating the giving of a get. Regardless, women are willing to give their husbands a lot of material goods in order to win the prized get at the end of the day.
I'm very curious. How does it work in other Western countries? What if a man adamantly wants a divorce, and his wife refuses? Must he stay married (on paper) forever? Can a spouse 'force' a divorce on another? Or once married, is a person subject to his spouse's mercy for evermore?
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| amother |
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| Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 8:17 am Post subject: Re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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| Barbara wrote: | | mimivan wrote: | | HindaRochel wrote: | | mimivan wrote: |
eh...it might look a bit better for them on paper...but in actual practice, we are the ones who are really in charge... |
We keep talking about two different things. In charge in terms of greater responsibility and obligation? Or in charge as in having more say and more rights? |
Say in what? In what we are going to have in the house? If we are having guests? What schools we should send our kids to? What purchases to make? Whether to move? Whether to go to in-laws for chag? our spending? etc..
well, I think de jure, he is really in charge of managing the money, but in actual fact, I don't know of a single couple offhand (at least not one that openly admits) that the man completely dominates in all of these things without giving what his wife says at least equal weight. I know in terms of moving, a man is required to get his wife's consent. When it comes to schools, he doesn't need to, but again, I can't think of a single couple who wouldn't openly admit that the husband refuses to consult his wife.
so even if a man can be in charge of the shul or whatever, quite frankly, in matters that affect me most, I don't see that there is any domination going on... |
But is that an effect of 21st century culture, or an effect of Judaism? If it were an effect of Judaism, there would have to be halacha stating that a woman was entitled to select the education for all children, or that the man should have no control over finances. Such halacha does not, to the best of my knowledge, exist. So in these respects, a woman derives authority from our current culture, not from Judaism. |
On the other hand, I remember a few discussions here with posters claiming that regarding observance at home, children's education etc. the man has the final say. This undermines the theory of female religious power at home and in education.
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| louche |
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| Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 8:33 am Post subject: Re: re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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| KAlex wrote: |
Can you clarify this, please? The only (orthodox) United Synagogue I know of is the one based out of London, and I've never heard of them phrasing the brachot this way. |
United Synagogue (full name United Synagogues of Conservative Judaism) in the US is an umbrella organization of Conservative congregations, much as the Orthodox Union is an umbrella organization of Orthodox congregations.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 10:24 am Post subject: Re: re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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| Ruchel wrote: |
| HindaRochel wrote: | | PinkFridge wrote: | | You know, I think this is kind of moot. The way we're emasculating our boys (and isn't it interesting to see parallels in the world at large - trickle down?) women will be dominant. Maybe in every area but religion but otherwise dominant. |
Physically men are becoming more like women. I would mention the dreaded E word but then I'd get banned for certain. |
I don't see it. (oh and Zola already claimed it and said it was the close end of the civilization... and bh we're still here) |
Just overall slow process. You wouldn't "see" it, unless you compared data from way back when through now.
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| pecan |
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| Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 9:54 pm Post subject: re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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| As far as rights ago, (a few pages back) if a man and woman both need tzeddaka, the halacha is that the woman gets priority.
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| poelmamosh |
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| Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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| Chayalle wrote: | | Quote: | There is a story related in the gemara about Reb Abba Chilkiya and his who were trying to deliver tzedakah incognito, when, fearing discovery, they quickly hid in the neighbor-baker's industrial oven. The floor was still hot from the day's baking and the Rabbi's feet burned, but not his wife's. What protected her was that there was greater merit in her way of giving tzedakah (women generally give prepared food; men, money and effort that must then be spent to turn raw ingredients edible).
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Just for accuracy's sake - it was Mar Ukva and his wife that hid in the oven. From here Chazal tell us that it is preferable for a person to throw themselves into a burning furnace, rather than cause another's face to become white from embarrassment. |
You are right. I'm sorry. The story of R Abba Chilkiya was that at a time of drought, both he and his wife davenned, but her prayers for rain were answered. The bottom line, about women's supreme level of giving tzedakah is the same.
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| poelmamosh |
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| Posted: Tue, May 11 2010, 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: re: A Female Dominated Religion |
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| HindaRochel wrote: |
Physically men are becoming more like women. I would mention the dreaded E word but then I'd get banned for certain. |
That's quite interesting. According to Kabbalah and Chassidus, the era of Moshiach will be dominated by the feminine aspects of creation. (Perhaps that was the spiritual impetus behind the secular feminist movement  )
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