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Severely disabled, is she still a mom? (frum woman)
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Marigold




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2010, 10:58 pm
micki wrote:
Paddington Bear wrote:
I can't imagine what her husband must be going through but this woman gave her life for these kids. If he takes them away from her, what does she have left?


but does she know? is she aware they are not with her? is she aware they are her kids?

or are these the projected feelings of her parents?

again, not right or wrong, just pointing out a side.


This is true too.
But if there's a chance (even minute) that she is aware, she certainly deserves her day in court.

This is tragic beyond words.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2010, 11:10 pm
Does anyone remember when they did a feature on one of the national news shows about Marci Tabak? She was deemed in a persistent vegetative state and sounds very similar to the mom in question. She learned how to communicate with a system that she could spell with something controlled by her eye movements. The first thing she spelled out was "Kafka" - in the famous Metamorphosis the main character woke to find himself trapped in a cockroach's body.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2010, 11:16 pm
Found an article: http://www.aish.com/sp/so/48901707.html
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hopeful1




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2010, 11:55 pm
chaylizi wrote:
Barbara wrote:
Abby's money is presumably needed to care for her in the long run. At the costs they're discussing, it won't last her whole life. Asking for child support in these circumstances is tantamount to demanding that her level fo care be substantially reduced.


Thank you. I was starting to think my opinion was unreasonable. Her care has to be taken care of first. Health care costs are expensive now & will be more expensive in the future.


I agree with you!

and he thinks she is too disabled to see her own children ---but not disabled enough to pay child support?!

He wants child support --but he has enough money to force the family to go to court so that their daughter can see her children??? He is blaming the family for focing the litigation on him---when he is the one who is forcing it on them by keeping the kids from their mother.

This whole situation is a nightmare--for everyone involved and it is just plain cruel that this guy is making this family suffer even more by keeping these kids from their mother.

I feel like today's world has lost so much humanity---feeling for other people. People just don't care anymore about other people.... A quote from the article "Our position is that it's really the grandparents talking, not Abbie, it's the grandparents' desire, not Abbie's," she said, "and the grandparents have no legal standing to ask for visitation."

---even if IT IS THE GRANDPARENT'S TALKING---SO WHAT? WHY CAN'T HE DO THIS FOR THE GRANDPARENT'S???? their lives were turned upside downalso! not just his....He married their daughter---they had these children together---and then this catastrophe happened that changed everyone's life --and then instead of allowing them this request--he is turning it into a war--shame on him that he can't have any compassion for his former in laws/children's grandparents!
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:09 am
chavamom wrote:
There are plenty of investments out there that are safe and have a decent rate of return.


Risk-free (since she's not getting any more) at 5%? These days? Maybe. I'm not in that bracket of investment. But I'm not seeing it.

In any case, if the case settled at $8 million, its likely that at least $1 to $2 million was for the husband and kids. Even if not, it was almost certainly a contingency fee case. Meaning that counsel got 33% to 40%. And costs had to be paid -- expert witness fees, deposition costs, etc. She doesn't have $8 million. She has at MOST between $4.5 and $5.5 million. At 5%, that's less than $300,000 in interest a year, meaning they are using over $100,000 in principle each year. And that will increase as her parents are less able to care for her. Even at the higher number, she'd need at least a 7& rate of return in order not to dip into principle. And, of course, we don't know when the case settled. There were huge unreimbursed expenses early on -- her parents cashed in theiir retirement accounts and sold assets to pay -- that should have been repaid off the top.

As I said, its a sad, sad situation. IF she is sufficiently aware, then she must be in h-ell. And not seeing her babies, well, that makes it even worse. Seeing her would be difficult for the kids, but, well, is NOT seeing her, not knowing about her, any better for them? One way of another, those kids need some serious help.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:19 am
hopeful1 wrote:
chaylizi wrote:
Barbara wrote:
Abby's money is presumably needed to care for her in the long run. At the costs they're discussing, it won't last her whole life. Asking for child support in these circumstances is tantamount to demanding that her level fo care be substantially reduced.


Thank you. I was starting to think my opinion was unreasonable. Her care has to be taken care of first. Health care costs are expensive now & will be more expensive in the future.


I agree with you!

and he thinks she is too disabled to see her own children ---but not disabled enough to pay child support?!

He wants child support --but he has enough money to force the family to go to court so that their daughter can see her children??? He is blaming the family for focing the litigation on him---when he is the one who is forcing it on them by keeping the kids from their mother.

This whole situation is a nightmare--for everyone involved and it is just plain cruel that this guy is making this family suffer even more by keeping these kids from their mother.

I feel like today's world has lost so much humanity---feeling for other people. People just don't care anymore about other people.... A quote from the article "Our position is that it's really the grandparents talking, not Abbie, it's the grandparents' desire, not Abbie's," she said, "and the grandparents have no legal standing to ask for visitation."

---even if IT IS THE GRANDPARENT'S TALKING---SO WHAT? WHY CAN'T HE DO THIS FOR THE GRANDPARENT'S???? their lives were turned upside downalso! not just his....He married their daughter---they had these children together---and then this catastrophe happened that changed everyone's life --and then instead of allowing them this request--he is turning it into a war--shame on him that he can't have any compassion for his former in laws/children's grandparents!


To his credit -- that's not how I read it. What he's saying is that Abby has no cogniscence. SHE doesn't want to see the kids, because she has no awareness; she's in a persistent vegatative state.

Quote:
A persistent vegetative state is a condition of patients with severe brain damage who were in a coma, but then progressed to a state of wakefulness without detectable awareness. It is a diagnosis of some uncertainty in that it deals with a syndrome. After four weeks in a Vegetative State (VS), the patient is classified as in a Persistent Vegetative State. This diagnosis is classified as a Permanent Vegetative State (PVS) after approximately 1 year of being in a Persistent Vegetative State.


Again -- key -- no awareness. Terri Schiavo.

Her parents, OTOH, claim that she IS aware, and can communicate. VERY different thing. Some interesting information about locked-in syndrome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....drome

The question is whether the parents are delusional. If they are, then the huge sums spent on rehabilitation are frankly wasted. If, OTOH, she IS aware, then I support them 100%.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:24 am
Chavamom thanks for that amazing article. I remember the name Marsi tabak so prominently in all the Feldheim books for years. What a courageous family. She held on like htat for twelve long years! amazing. and so sad.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:25 am
Even if the mother is not capable of understanding that these are her children, she is alive and deserves the best care she can get. If he had received money in the original decision, then that would be different. But he is asking for child support, probably as a legal tactic, to try and get the grandparents to back down. If he did get the signature from 100 Rabbis he is still her husband and still obligated for her care halachically.

Grandparents do have some legal rights. One simply can't cut off the grandparents, which is what the father is doing by denying them the right to explain who they are.

The children should not be deprived of knowing who their mother is. They will have a greater trauma in not knowing her or thinking she is dead or that she abandoned them or whatever, than in knowing "mommy loves you but she can't hold you. But she would love to get your kisses and hear your words...."
Four is not too young for that. They would be able to understand. He is creating great harm to those children by not letting them have some contact with her.

The grandparents should be able to connect with their grandchildren as grandparents. That means they should be told "these are your mommy's parents..." Saba shouldn't just be a word to them.
He does not deserve any money from her accident if he is not allowing the children any connection to the mother.

There have been several cases of people waking from PVS (one recently, within the past few months made the news) and recent tests and studies have shown that what we think of as brain dead isn't. That there is some awareness; much more than we would like to believe.
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:27 am
. Since I spent three months in the hospital prior to my daughters birth by a hysterectomy that also saved my life, I can say something.This story makes me appreciate that my life is back to normal. This woman needs verrry expensive care and this is the ONLY way she is able to survive. I think a lot of what this man is doing is out of pain. Honestly, what bothers me is that if he really loved her he would want to be sure that she was comfortable the rest of his life. The kids could have visitation with a child psychologist present to help the kids. I think the deny of access is out of fear b/c HE is so traumatized. Honestly, I wonder how equipped he is to be taking care of them at all. While I think that some of the money should go to him , I don't think he should get monthly child support. Had this woman survived normally he would STILL need to hire her help as it is difficult to take care of triplets. He is responsible for their needs as all fathers are. I do think that the money should be given on condition that the husband get severe therapy to be sure he could be a mentally stable father after going through such a trauma. It is obvious that the things he is saying are coming from a father who is traumatized. Part of me think that the kids should not be in his care at all either until he is in deep therapy. sorry.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:34 am
Barbara wrote:

To his credit -- that's not how I read it. What he's saying is that Abby has no cogniscence. SHE doesn't want to see the kids, because she has no awareness; she's in a persistent vegatative state.



1. he is denying the grandparents the right to call themselves grandparents. he doesn't want any connection with her. That is different than saying "I think they will be traumatized from seeing her..." He is not allowing the children to realize they HAVE a living mother.

Quote:
Again -- key -- no awareness. Terri Schiavo


We don't know enough about PVS to assure ourselves that Terri Schiavo actually had no awareness. If she could experience pain than she went through absolute hell.

The parents aren't wasting their money by making sure she has the best care possible. They are making sure she has the best life possible, as free of pain and with as much attention as possible. That is morality. Much of what is being done, whether it will or will not help her come out of her vegetative state, will make her life better. Her muscles will be kept functional, and she will have physical touch and sound. If there is any awareness she will suffer less pain, physically and emotionally.
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ganizzy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 2:08 am
I have a few opinions on this
first of all, this article is obviously one sided as Dan did not give his side of the story - and everyone is just lapping up that bias and running to judge.

I dont personally know the family but the triplets are in my childrens school and the same age as my dd (but in the other preschool class) they are almost 4 or already 4. and btw the father is remarried.

right after the birth, the LA jewish community rallied around the family with suppers, visiting in the hospital, help....

but remember he is a single father of triplets - he has to work to support a family of 4 (and in ca thats not cheap) but he also has to pay for full time help bec he cant be in 2 places at once. so hes asking for child support out of the settlement - where else should he get the money? should he work 2 jobs so that the kids see niether mother or father.

now about the visiting, I dont know whats right or wrong - but my dd whos a few months older then those kids would not be very warm with s/o as disabled as the mother. yes it would be upsetting to them and they wouldnt go and hug and kiss her in any case. so is this about the mother seeing the kids or about the kids seeing the mother? add to that a long plane ride with 3 little kids, the time difference and u got an even more difficult situation. I know I dont travel with my kids anymore (except to simchas) bec its not worth the headache and hassle.

and for someone who commented - yes he is frum and he probablly did consult with a rav b4 he made these decisions. its absolutely pitiful (sp?) for the mother not to see her kids, but does that mean that the father has to let the kids if its not in the the childrens best interest? remember hes the one left with the responsibilty of their reactions.

also he said (according to the article, as an aside) that he would let them when theyre older.

bottom line is - dont judge!!!!

but what really bothers me is how everyone forgets that theres 2 sides to the story. im sure we all know of stories that got twisted by the media bec of the way it was presented, yet here we are ready to believe everything they write.
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 2:26 am
ganizzy wrote:
I have a few opinions on this
first of all, this article is obviously one sided as Dan did not give his side of the story - and everyone is just lapping up that bias and running to judge.

I dont personally know the family but the triplets are in my childrens school and the same age as my dd (but in the other preschool class) they are almost 4 or already 4. and btw the father is remarried.

right after the birth, the LA jewish community rallied around the family with suppers, visiting in the hospital, help....

but remember he is a single father of triplets - he has to work to support a family of 4 (and in ca thats not cheap) but he also has to pay for full time help bec he cant be in 2 places at once. so hes asking for child support out of the settlement - where else should he get the money? should he work 2 jobs so that the kids see niether mother or father.

now about the visiting, I dont know whats right or wrong - but my dd whos a few months older then those kids would not be very warm with s/o as disabled as the mother. yes it would be upsetting to them and they wouldnt go and hug and kiss her in any case. so is this about the mother seeing the kids or about the kids seeing the mother? add to that a long plane ride with 3 little kids, the time difference and u got an even more difficult situation. I know I dont travel with my kids anymore (except to simchas) bec its not worth the headache and hassle.

and for someone who commented - yes he is frum and he probablly did consult with a rav b4 he made these decisions. its absolutely pitiful (sp?) for the mother not to see her kids, but does that mean that the father has to let the kids if its not in the the childrens best interest? remember hes the one left with the responsibilty of their reactions.

also he said (according to the article, as an aside) that he would let them when theyre older.

bottom line is - dont judge!!!!

but what really bothers me is how everyone forgets that theres 2 sides to the story. im sure we all know of stories that got twisted by the media bec of the way it was presented, yet here we are ready to believe everything they write.


While I agree with what you are saying.. What is to become of this woman once her parents die ch'v.?? Who will take care of her?
I do think that this man does need heavy duty therapy to get over the trauma that he has been through. All I can think of is that it could have been me ch'v. I would want my husband to have help and get on with his life.
He doesn't need to stay in California. He could look for a job elsewhere and be near a frum community that will send him chesed girls and the like. There ARE ways that he could make this work.
Also, if the father is remarried,why can't the new wife take care of the kids??? I would think that it's understood being that she married him with three kids!

Even if he is not remarried, these kids are in school til at least 3pm each day and he could hire a babysitter til he gets home.
He could make simple suppers like fish sticks and spaghetti etc etc each nite. Come on, Women work full time and take care of kids all the time! I understand he needs help but grow up!

Also, it's maybe a 5 hour plane ride from LA to NC.. I did 12 hours from Israel to New york.. He could bring a relative to help him.

Sorry , but I think this guy is severely traumatized.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 2:26 am
ganizzy wrote:
I have a few opinions on this
first of all,


He isn't even willing to let the children know she exists. And he MAY let them see her when they are older if they want. So what he wants to do is take money that she needs to live from her, refuses to let the children know their mother exists, and won't even let the grandparents explain their relationship.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 2:34 am
There are people who know both sides of the story and still think there is plenty to judge. Enough said. (Though I agree he must be traumatized).
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 2:37 am
chavamom wrote:
There are people who know both sides of the story and still think there is plenty to judge. Enough said. (Though I agree he must be traumatized).


Probably he is traumatized. But he needs to work on that for the sake of the children.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 2:40 am
Uh, yeah.
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LeahW




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 4:21 am
Mama Bear wrote:
I must quote this comment from the LA Times article which really hits home many points:

Quote:
israelschochet at 1:55 PM April 11, 2010
As a personal friend of those involved I want to emphasize here that being that Dan refused any interviews you are hearing a one sided story. I find it ironic that the only "professional" to come forward about the progress taking place was an acupuncturist while all the doctors and neurosurgeons say otherwise. Point being is simple: don't judge someone from an article. You were not there when the tears of joy at the birth of these beautiful children turned to tears of sadness. You were not there through the many sleepless nights required to raise those triplets (which Dan has primarily single handedly done with some assistance from his parents and nannies). You were not there when countless decisions needed to be made, heartwrenching decisions. We are not taking about a divorce case. We are talking about two people very much in love when was was cruelly torn away by a freak accident. Nothing was taken lightly or easily. It's easy to sit on your couch, 4 years later, and judge. G-d forbid you should ever be put in that position I would hope you would handle it with the strength and integrity that Dan did.


Thank you for this. This guy does not have it easy, no question. And he is probably doing what he sees as best for the children. However, I hope that he is consulting with Rabbanim about this. It is clear that the mother should not be denied access, even if the neurosurgeons say she is not aware. Doctors have made mistakes and imagine if she is aware of everything and has to suffer this pain of being denied her children. I am sorry I referred to Dan as "heartless" in a previous post. I think he is probably doing the best he knows how, but unfortunately I believe he is making a terrible mistake.
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smilingmom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 7:06 am
Am I the only one that finds it difficult to dan l'kaf zchus someone who divorces their wife when they are so ill?
It is hard to judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes, but I hope I married a more compassionate man (A REAL MAN), not one that wants to move on with his life.
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mynameismom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 7:49 am
Quote:
It is hard to judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes, but I hope I married a more compassionate man (A REAL MAN), not one that wants to move on with his life.


Your comment really made me think. I'll post with my name even though I may take some bashing for this.

I am sure that if G-d forbid my family was put into a similar situation in which I was this ill with no hope of recovery that my husband would find someone to mother my children and to be a companion with him. I would never wish such a fate on my relatively young husband to live for the rest of his life with a vegetable for a wife and no mother (Im talking about someone who can care for and love the kids) for my children. I love them all too much to ever wish such a fate on them (G-d protect us from such things) Of course I would hope I would have the very best of care but I am too compassionate to my family to think the way you wrote in your last post.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2010, 7:57 am
mynameismom wrote:
Quote:
It is hard to judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes, but I hope I married a more compassionate man (A REAL MAN), not one that wants to move on with his life.


Your comment really made me think. I'll post with my name even though I may take some bashing for this.

I am sure that if G-d forbid my family was put into a similar situation in which I was this ill with no hope of recovery that my husband would find someone to mother my children and to be a companion with him. I would never wish such a fate on my relatively young husband to live for the rest of his life with a vegetable for a wife and no mother (Im talking about someone who can care for and love the kids) for my children. I love them all too much to ever wish such a fate on them (G-d protect us from such things) Of course I would hope I would have the very best of care but I am too compassionate to my family to think the way you wrote in your last post.


I agree. I don't think it is fair to condemn a young man to living with basically no wife for the rest of her life. Don't forget he has been told by all the drs that she will never recover and as far as he is concerned the wife that he knew and loved is no longer there.

I know a woman in a somewhat similar, though not as bad, situation - her husband had a stroke and can't talk anymore and needs lots of care. He can walk and has some limited communication and does understand what is going on and is bh making some headway. She told me that many of her friends told her to leave him. And he is not a vegetable by any means.
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