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| mimivan |
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 Posted: Sun, Mar 07 2010, 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothi |
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| life'sgreat wrote: | | HindaRochel wrote: | Atali, it isn't the words used but the discomfort that the parents display and convey that lifeisgreat is referring to. Specific words, stated with confidence aren't a problem. But if every time the parents mention the child's private part, by what ever name they choose, and they can barely get the word out, or they blush or whatever, the child learns to associate embarrassment with their private parts.
I don't know if she is correct or not, but her point is, if I understand correctly, that this embarrassment may hinder the child from reporting if someone touched them inappropriately, or make it difficult to assess what happened. |
Correct. If a child gets a message all the time that if they talk about any private part, their parent will freak out, they are not exactly going to feel they can come and say someone touched my doody or whatever. It isn't only because of the discomfort of talking about it, but the discomfort sends a message to the child that it is a thing to be embarrassed about and as such, the parent will be horrified that the child mentions this under the context which is already frightening for the child. (That seemed like a bad, very unclear sentence, but my brain is full of suds and shmattas now.) |
or the opposite. k...if a child is taught in a positive way that these parts are private and no one has the right to ask to see them or touch them, he might be more likely (if he has a good communication with his parents) to tell them, because he was told that these are private and that the molester did something. wrong. I really don't think I or a lot of parents these days communicate "shame" when telling a child about tsnius ...it's more that this is private and we don't see these parts. In fact, I think molestation prevention could be a constructive part of educating a child about tsniut from the age of three...
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| amother |
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| Posted: Sun, Mar 07 2010, 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothi |
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| mimivan wrote: | | life'sgreat wrote: | | HindaRochel wrote: | Atali, it isn't the words used but the discomfort that the parents display and convey that lifeisgreat is referring to. Specific words, stated with confidence aren't a problem. But if every time the parents mention the child's private part, by what ever name they choose, and they can barely get the word out, or they blush or whatever, the child learns to associate embarrassment with their private parts.
I don't know if she is correct or not, but her point is, if I understand correctly, that this embarrassment may hinder the child from reporting if someone touched them inappropriately, or make it difficult to assess what happened. |
Correct. If a child gets a message all the time that if they talk about any private part, their parent will freak out, they are not exactly going to feel they can come and say someone touched my doody or whatever. It isn't only because of the discomfort of talking about it, but the discomfort sends a message to the child that it is a thing to be embarrassed about and as such, the parent will be horrified that the child mentions this under the context which is already frightening for the child. (That seemed like a bad, very unclear sentence, but my brain is full of suds and shmattas now.) |
or the opposite. k...if a child is taught in a positive way that these parts are private and no one has the right to ask to see them or touch them, he might be more likely (if he has a good communication with his parents) to tell them, because he was told that these are private and that the molester did something. wrong. I really don't think I or a lot of parents these days communicate "shame" when telling a child about tsnius ...it's more that this is private and we don't see these parts. In fact, I think molestation prevention could be a constructive part of educating a child about tsniut from the age of three... |
I grew up in a home where there was a lot of shame about anything that's a bodliy function or body part. We were petrified to tell our parents, either of htem when we were in pain, or had an infection. Later on when I was being molested I was too afraid to tell anyone because of this. I knew that it's horrible and not something to talk about. I knew that hteir reaction will be really bad and I didn't share. If you were taught in a positive way that's great, but so many people aren't
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| marina |
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| Posted: Sun, Mar 07 2010, 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothi |
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| amother wrote: | | mimivan wrote: | | life'sgreat wrote: | | HindaRochel wrote: | Atali, it isn't the words used but the discomfort that the parents display and convey that lifeisgreat is referring to. Specific words, stated with confidence aren't a problem. But if every time the parents mention the child's private part, by what ever name they choose, and they can barely get the word out, or they blush or whatever, the child learns to associate embarrassment with their private parts.
I don't know if she is correct or not, but her point is, if I understand correctly, that this embarrassment may hinder the child from reporting if someone touched them inappropriately, or make it difficult to assess what happened. |
Correct. If a child gets a message all the time that if they talk about any private part, their parent will freak out, they are not exactly going to feel they can come and say someone touched my doody or whatever. It isn't only because of the discomfort of talking about it, but the discomfort sends a message to the child that it is a thing to be embarrassed about and as such, the parent will be horrified that the child mentions this under the context which is already frightening for the child. (That seemed like a bad, very unclear sentence, but my brain is full of suds and shmattas now.) |
or the opposite. k...if a child is taught in a positive way that these parts are private and no one has the right to ask to see them or touch them, he might be more likely (if he has a good communication with his parents) to tell them, because he was told that these are private and that the molester did something. wrong. I really don't think I or a lot of parents these days communicate "shame" when telling a child about tsnius ...it's more that this is private and we don't see these parts. In fact, I think molestation prevention could be a constructive part of educating a child about tsniut from the age of three... |
I grew up in a home where there was a lot of shame about anything that's a bodliy function or body part. We were petrified to tell our parents, either of htem when we were in pain, or had an infection. Later on when I was being molested I was too afraid to tell anyone because of this. I knew that it's horrible and not something to talk about. I knew that hteir reaction will be really bad and I didn't share. If you were taught in a positive way that's great, but so many people aren't |
Amother that is a horrible story. I hope you are getting help. I hope your parents get help.
Atali- I also want to point out that a kid who is interviewed by a secular police officer/social worker is often interviewed alone. They do not allow parents in there for a variety of reasons. So a kid who starts explaining that he was touched on his "makom habris" is not going to be understood well by the interviewer ( unless you happen to luck out and get a culturally aware interviewer) and that will make for more tension and confusion for everyone. It's already a really stressful, embarrassing situation, using non-standard language will make it worse.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Sun, Mar 07 2010, 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothi |
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| marina wrote: | | amother wrote: | | mimivan wrote: | | life'sgreat wrote: | | HindaRochel wrote: | Atali, it isn't the words used but the discomfort that the parents display and convey that lifeisgreat is referring to. Specific words, stated with confidence aren't a problem. But if every time the parents mention the child's private part, by what ever name they choose, and they can barely get the word out, or they blush or whatever, the child learns to associate embarrassment with their private parts.
I don't know if she is correct or not, but her point is, if I understand correctly, that this embarrassment may hinder the child from reporting if someone touched them inappropriately, or make it difficult to assess what happened. |
Correct. If a child gets a message all the time that if they talk about any private part, their parent will freak out, they are not exactly going to feel they can come and say someone touched my doody or whatever. It isn't only because of the discomfort of talking about it, but the discomfort sends a message to the child that it is a thing to be embarrassed about and as such, the parent will be horrified that the child mentions this under the context which is already frightening for the child. (That seemed like a bad, very unclear sentence, but my brain is full of suds and shmattas now.) |
or the opposite. k...if a child is taught in a positive way that these parts are private and no one has the right to ask to see them or touch them, he might be more likely (if he has a good communication with his parents) to tell them, because he was told that these are private and that the molester did something. wrong. I really don't think I or a lot of parents these days communicate "shame" when telling a child about tsnius ...it's more that this is private and we don't see these parts. In fact, I think molestation prevention could be a constructive part of educating a child about tsniut from the age of three... |
I grew up in a home where there was a lot of shame about anything that's a bodliy function or body part. We were petrified to tell our parents, either of htem when we were in pain, or had an infection. Later on when I was being molested I was too afraid to tell anyone because of this. I knew that it's horrible and not something to talk about. I knew that hteir reaction will be really bad and I didn't share. If you were taught in a positive way that's great, but so many people aren't |
Amother that is a horrible story. I hope you are getting help. I hope your parents get help.
Atali- I also want to point out that a kid who is interviewed by a secular police officer/social worker is often interviewed alone. They do not allow parents in there for a variety of reasons. So a kid who starts explaining that he was touched on his "makom habris" is not going to be understood well by the interviewer ( unless you happen to luck out and get a culturally aware interviewer) and that will make for more tension and confusion for everyone. It's already a really stressful, embarrassing situation, using non-standard language will make it worse. |
I am getting help and it's a horrible story. My parents aren't getting help and don't even know that I was molested. I don't htink they'll ever know.
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| Atali |
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| Posted: Sun, Mar 07 2010, 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothi |
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| marina wrote: | | amother wrote: | | mimivan wrote: | | life'sgreat wrote: | | HindaRochel wrote: | Atali, it isn't the words used but the discomfort that the parents display and convey that lifeisgreat is referring to. Specific words, stated with confidence aren't a problem. But if every time the parents mention the child's private part, by what ever name they choose, and they can barely get the word out, or they blush or whatever, the child learns to associate embarrassment with their private parts.
I don't know if she is correct or not, but her point is, if I understand correctly, that this embarrassment may hinder the child from reporting if someone touched them inappropriately, or make it difficult to assess what happened. |
Correct. If a child gets a message all the time that if they talk about any private part, their parent will freak out, they are not exactly going to feel they can come and say someone touched my doody or whatever. It isn't only because of the discomfort of talking about it, but the discomfort sends a message to the child that it is a thing to be embarrassed about and as such, the parent will be horrified that the child mentions this under the context which is already frightening for the child. (That seemed like a bad, very unclear sentence, but my brain is full of suds and shmattas now.) |
or the opposite. k...if a child is taught in a positive way that these parts are private and no one has the right to ask to see them or touch them, he might be more likely (if he has a good communication with his parents) to tell them, because he was told that these are private and that the molester did something. wrong. I really don't think I or a lot of parents these days communicate "shame" when telling a child about tsnius ...it's more that this is private and we don't see these parts. In fact, I think molestation prevention could be a constructive part of educating a child about tsniut from the age of three... |
I grew up in a home where there was a lot of shame about anything that's a bodliy function or body part. We were petrified to tell our parents, either of htem when we were in pain, or had an infection. Later on when I was being molested I was too afraid to tell anyone because of this. I knew that it's horrible and not something to talk about. I knew that hteir reaction will be really bad and I didn't share. If you were taught in a positive way that's great, but so many people aren't |
Amother that is a horrible story. I hope you are getting help. I hope your parents get help.
Atali- I also want to point out that a kid who is interviewed by a secular police officer/social worker is often interviewed alone. They do not allow parents in there for a variety of reasons. So a kid who starts explaining that he was touched on his "makom habris" is not going to be understood well by the interviewer ( unless you happen to luck out and get a culturally aware interviewer) and that will make for more tension and confusion for everyone. It's already a really stressful, embarrassing situation, using non-standard language will make it worse. |
So you think that every kid should be taught the appropriate words just in case they are at one point interviewed by a non-Jewish police officer or social worker? That is taking it a bit far, don't you think?
I would certainly hope that any social worker or police officer in this situation would realize that if a kid is using a word in a foreign language to describe a body part the best solution would be to ask the kid to point to the spot. Especially since plenty of secular American parents use euphemisms instead of calling the organs by their anatomically correct terms.
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| shosh |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 1:41 am Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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| I think that's why, when investigating possible abuse of young children, the social worker or whatever gets them to draw it or act out what happened on dolls.
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| marina |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 3:32 am Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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| Quote: | | So you think that every kid should be taught the appropriate words just in case they are at one point interviewed by a non-Jewish police officer or social worker? That is taking it a bit far, don't you think? |
No. Just like you probably don't think it is taking it a bit far to teach every kid not to talk to strangers, just in case they are possibly a target of a kidnapping. Both unlikely, but better safe than sorry.
| Quote: | | I would certainly hope that any social worker or police officer in this situation would realize that if a kid is using a word in a foreign language to describe a body part the best solution would be to ask the kid to point to the spot. Especially since plenty of secular American parents use euphemisms instead of calling the organs by their anatomically correct terms. |
I don't think you are picturing this quite well. To help you out, imagine that you are visiting a foreign country, say Italy, and God Forbid, have been raped. You now need to explain to the police what occured. Because they are low on interpreters that day, they ask you to point to your body parts and act out what happened.
That does not sound remotely plausible, professional or like anything that would hold up in a court of law. Nevermind as to how degrading that would be for you, right?
The same with a child. No one is going to ask a female child to pull down her panties, for example, and point out exactly which orfice was entered and how far. A general "point to the spot" is not going to work either- a six year old girl, for example, if asked to point, will just point downward, toward the lower area, if she even does that much. A girl who has been brought up with only one term ( say "tushie") and who is taught that it is not tznius to talk about tushies is going to have a very, very difficult time explaining what happened in a standard vaginal rape scenario.
Secular american terms are known to secular American authorities so the problem is lessened, although it still exists. I am sure that social workers and officers who work with frum communities know how to handle such situations, but I imagine it is way more difficult than interviewing a standard victim. My point, simply, is that there is no need to make the matter more complicated by raising a child to be deliberately unaware of the anatomical terms.
| Quote: | | I think that's why, when investigating possible abuse of young children, the social worker or whatever gets them to draw it or act out what happened on dolls. |
Drawing I do not see as plausible b/c the pictures made by 5 year olds, for example, bear no relation to reality, sometimes  But dolls might work with some kids. I imagine they probably do have anatomically correct dolls for these kinds of situations. Not sure how it would hold up in court, though. Probably depends on the experience and training of the interviewer.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 3:42 am Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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From my rape training course different names wouldn't be an issue. The social workers would be aware and should know how to question. It would be if and when the child needs to get on the stand that they would need to at least at some point indicate what the parts were (either by being asked something along the lines of and when you say "makom brit" you mean what we call a pnis right?"
But the child should know that his/her parts are private from EVERYONE, and that there are only a few occasions when someone can "look". The doctor, mom or dad to help clean etc. They should also learn that being private and shameful are two different things.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 4:49 am Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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| Sorry to hijack, but wouldn't a rapist simply be able to say "I'm a doctor" to get instant cooperation?
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| amother |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 4:54 am Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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or a therapist for that matter..
as in the rapist
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| marina |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 9:04 am Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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| Quote: | | From my rape training course different names wouldn't be an issue. The social workers would be aware and should know how to question. It would be if and when the child needs to get on the stand that they would need to at least at some point indicate what the parts were (either by being asked something along the lines of and when you say "makom brit" you mean what we call a pnis right?" |
But you are in Israel. That would be like someone using the Spanish terms here. Social workers are probably trained for that.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 9:45 am Post subject: Re: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothi |
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| marina wrote: | | Quote: | | From my rape training course different names wouldn't be an issue. The social workers would be aware and should know how to question. It would be if and when the child needs to get on the stand that they would need to at least at some point indicate what the parts were (either by being asked something along the lines of and when you say "makom brit" you mean what we call a pnis right?" |
But you are in Israel. That would be like someone using the Spanish terms here. Social workers are probably trained for that. |
My rape crisis training course was in the USA.
It was awhile ago, but the training should be the same. Many people don't call private parts by the real name, and in fact knowing the real names, when that was not was taught, would be one clue to the fact that the child was abused. Not proof, but a further indication.
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| marina |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 1:17 pm Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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| Quote: | | in fact knowing the real names, when that was not was taught, would be one clue to the fact that the child was abused. Not proof, but a further indication | 
Huh? Knowing the correct names is an indication of abuse? Since when? Maybe you mean more advanced s-xual knowledge, but that does not include correct body part names...
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 08 2010, 2:43 pm Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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This is awhile ago and it very well could be that I am remembering wrong. By awhile ago I mean about 20, 25 years...
In any case, we were told that children sometimes used alternate words for body parts and were sensitized to that. Has it really changed that much? I've been out of the field for awhile now.
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| amother |
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Amother
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 22 2010, 7:21 pm Post subject: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothing.. |
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| I would let the school and whoe er else needs to know
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| MommyZ |
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| Posted: Mon, Mar 22 2010, 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothi |
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| marina wrote: | | Quote: | | in fact knowing the real names, when that was not was taught, would be one clue to the fact that the child was abused. Not proof, but a further indication |
Huh? Knowing the correct names is an indication of abuse? Since when? Maybe you mean more advanced s-xual knowledge, but that does not include correct body part names... |
ITA
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2010, 11:16 am Post subject: Re: re: A Child molested - I cant just sit by & do nothi |
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| MommyZ wrote: | | marina wrote: | | Quote: | | in fact knowing the real names, when that was not was taught, would be one clue to the fact that the child was abused. Not proof, but a further indication |
Huh? Knowing the correct names is an indication of abuse? Since when? Maybe you mean more advanced s-xual knowledge, but that does not include correct body part names... |
ITA |
I realize my answer was not fully developed.
Many children are taught alternative names for body parts. When SUCH a child knows the correct names, that could indicate child abuse. The point was I was taught to accept from the get go that children didn't always know the correct names. One had to evaluate the child as an individual.
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