Religious Defection

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7239

Hillel and footsteps provide essential services. Without these groups, it would be more difficult for those going off the derech to get GEDs, to establish relationships, to maintain psychogical stability. You'd have a lot more people with drugs, alcohol and general mental health issues.

Platinum Member Joined: May 22 2005 Posts: 13795

Too bad they can't do that without the agenda of saving them from a cult.

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7239

chavamom, you know as well as I do that some strands of frumkeit ( NOT ALL) share more than just a few similarities with cults.

Yeah, these groups may exaggerate and so on, but most groups with a purpose tend to blow things out of proportion.

Platinum Member Joined: May 22 2005 Posts: 13795

Marina, my point is that this is not a benign organization that is helping people to get their GED's and move on. I honestly don't think it is emotionally healthy in the long run for the individuals. How much are they helped and how much are they pawns in the agency's agenda? I think true help would help them integrate their old way of life with a healthy understanding of where they came from and where they want to go (I.e. "it wasn't religion, my mother was a nut...so what is it that I want now?") It seems that someone who decided "I want to get a GED, investigate college, but maybe I want to still keep shabbos" would be seen as in need of an intervention, in danger of falling back in with that dangerous, you know, CULT.

Posted: Mon, Mar 01 2010, 7:04 am Post subject: re: Religious Defection

Chavamom, I would agree with you here. I think a lot of the pple who turn to them are suffering from various emotional, family, or marital issues, and the best help would be to aid them in finding the real cause of their problems rather than convincing them to leave their communities. I've heard from other sources about Hillel. They don't only help them get better qualifications, jobs, etc. They do whatever they can to get them shake off their Yiddishkeit, and a lot of these pple come out more confused than they were before, wearing all the secular clothing, etc, eating pork and whatever else, but with none of their emotional problems resolved and they tend to drift on like this for years.

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7239

It is very difficult for a person with issues to leave and just become a bit more modern but still keep shabbos. Incredibly difficult. Almost like for an abused wife who finally leaves, does she want to still keep in touch with her old community, maybe call her ex every once in a while. No, she wants a complete and clean break. Maybe eventually she will get married again, but for now she needs to break any and all ties.

Also, hey, don't judge these organizations until you come up with something better. I am sure that some of the founding parties had their own very negative experiences with that world which therefore colors their outlook. But no one has done any better, there aren't any "Transitition from Chareidi to MO" programs out there and my guess is that the frum people who might want to start something like that would just be villified and subjected to incredible social pressures, if not outright violence, to drop the whole thing.

You get to see a very ugly side of frum life when you go against the grain, even in a relatively minor matter. I can't imagine that any frum organization could still do this and maintain their sanity, their safety.

Silver Member Joined: May 22 2008 Posts: 965

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7239

Also, it is probably comfortable, but very self-serving, to imagine that all people who leave frumkeit do so because of their emotional issues or mental problems and moreover, that they just end up in limbo for the rest of their lives, "drifting on forever" with no meaning and no purpose.

That's almost as self serving as teaching your children that the secular world consists entirely of hookers and drug dealers.

People leave for a variety of reasons, some intellectual, some emotional, some related to the religious approach of the community. Many leave because of a combination of these factors.

Sometimes, for example, an emotional or mental health situation is not treated normally and is in fact exacerbated because of the particular religious enclave that the person finds him or herself in. Take the teen who has been molested by a rebbi or the wife who has been abused by her husband. If it was a typical society group, the teacher/husband is arrested and the teen/wife gets counseling and then they all move on with their lives. In some frum groups, the opposite would happen. We can't be moser on a yid, so the rebbi gets a promotion to menahel. And the abusive husband gets to become a prominent community council member. And the teen is marginalized and told he is crazy. The wife is told she will never remarry. Shidduchim are not suggested for these people and they are shunned by their support systems.

The reasons that people leave are very complex and not to be dismissed lightly- those in the frum community who just want to write it all off as "emotional issues" do a huge disservice to their own groups because people are leaving and will continue to leave and all you will be able to say is "well, they had problems to begin with."

Posted: Mon, Mar 01 2010, 9:44 am Post subject:

Posted: Mon, Mar 01 2010, 9:48 am Post subject:

I have helped kids get their GED (both israelis and former chassidim) , it really isn't that complicated. It doesn't need a support group.

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 12 2005 Posts: 2715

These groups are cutting off the leg to save the toe. Lots of children have serious issues with their schools. The solution is almost never to end their schooling altogether - and there are vast numbers of potential solutions to explore before deciding "no more school, anywhere, ever" is the only viable option.

In many cases, these groups are also themselves as "cult-like" as they accuse ultra Orthodoxy of being. They tell people that they must jettison their old lives, their families, anything that reminds them of being Orthodox ... not exactly emblematic of considered and neutral support. This sort of alienation further traumatizes people who are having trouble within the Jewish community. The analogy isn't telling an abused ex-wife that she should keep in touch with her husband; the analogy is telling an abused ex-wife that from now on she should become a lesbian.

And of course, they advance suspicion of, and bigotry against, frum Jews. Most people here probably see that as a negative.

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7239

Platinum Member Joined: May 22 2005 Posts: 13795

Posted: Mon, Mar 01 2010, 5:08 pm Post subject: re: Religious Defection

I have never ever heard of any woman who has to wear pants to sleep, even in the Charedi world. Her mother was obviously a lunatic.

Her stepfather had no place in her bedroom, so what she wore was her business.
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Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7239

I personally know a family whose female children are not allowed to wear nightgowns without tights.

Posted: Mon, Mar 01 2010, 5:57 pm Post subject:

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7239

Posted: Tue, Mar 02 2010, 6:10 am Post subject: