Is my friend's ketubah kosher?

Posted: Tue, Feb 16 2010, 4:02 pm Post subject: Is my friend's ketubah kosher?

A friend of mine has recently moved to a new community, and the Rabbi asked her to show the ketubah prior to the registration as new members of the local community.
Both my friend and her husband are converts, and on the ketubah it says "Ploni ben Avraham" and "Plonit bat Avraham".
The Rabbi said that he had doubts about the validity of such a ketubah, since it should have said Avraham AVINU.
He asked the shaila to the Rabbanut Israel and they said that the ketubah was invalid.
Now, I know the Rav that made their first ketubah, he is a member of a very well known Hasidic American Beth Din, and I know that all his ketubot of converts are written in the same way.
My friend is very confused...
The new Rabbi had them have a second chuppa and prepared a new ketubah

Gold Member Joined: Jul 11 2008 Posts: 1897

Posted: Tue, Feb 16 2010, 6:17 pm Post subject:

No no money...
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If the Rabbinut said it is not kosher, what difference would our opinion make?

Look, I know it is annoying, but she had better go ahead and do it to be on the safe side. Better safe than sorry in cases like this...and it may seem unfair but the consequences of standing one's ground may not be worth it...
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I can't comment on the validity but I checked my ketuba and it says bat Avraham Avinu. But I'm very protective of my Avinu, I've had people miss it before and I correct them. Some gerim I know of are happy to drop it when possible as they don't like people to know their background whereas I'm very public. I do wonder with a ketuba though as it is what is used as an identity document for kids' schools and all sorts of things so I'd have thought the Avinu (notifying of gerut) reasonably important in case that needs looking into.

Interesting question.
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Gold Member Joined: Jul 11 2008 Posts: 1897

If there was no money involved, then it just seems to be a difference of opinion on what a ketubah should say.

If it happened to me, I would write the Rav from the original conversion a letter explaining what had happened so he can look into the matter for himself. He may want to change the way he does things or not, but he should know that his ketubahs have come into question.
If I was the Rav I would want to know.

I must say I'm not 100% certain about this, but I somehow got an impression that sephardi ketuba generally use ben/bat Abraham Avinu vs ashkenazi ketuba using ben/bat Abraham. Will need to check with DH, though.

Umm...I'm asking again innocently why we are double checking the Rav (who even asked a shayla of the Rabbinut ) on this one?

does anyone want to send me their get so I can evaluate it? Laughing

I wanted to clarify that she DID go ahead and did the second chuppa, just when I spoke to her today she seemed very perplexed as to why didn't the second Rabbi try to contact the Rav that made the first ketuba before sending the question to Rabbanut Israel?
Afterall, the first Rav is a memeber of a Beit Din, not the first guy on the street...
Also, the first Rav and the Rabbi are of OPPOSITE views about their approach to Judaism...

I'm a geyores, and while mine does say avraham avinu--I was told for a man, R. Avraham would be sufficient. Also, it SAYS I'm a geyores not a besula on the ketuba, so nu, Avraham IS avraham avinu.

Posted: Tue, Feb 16 2010, 7:25 pm Post subject:

As far as I known, not everywhere is done that the kalla is not called betulah anymore just because she is a gyoret, so maybe in this case it wouldn't be clear...

sarahnurit
you know, after sending you two lengthy pms and posting on this thread, I would have her call the Rabbinut herself and ask her own shayla...just in case this Rabbi is politically motivated...because the Beis Din in CH is a higher authority than him...

but I would go ahead and do whatever the RAbbinut says...she should ask her own shayla, though...

Posted: Tue, Feb 16 2010, 7:48 pm Post subject:

Ok I will speak to her asap...thanks for the pms!

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48155

it's an interesting discussionbut really not up to us to poskin

All I can say is, I know people who got married at the Israeli rabbanut( gerim) and had Avraham. Some had Avinu. Some had the name of the closest male Jewish relative (father, grandfather even).
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Did it day giyorta da? My DH once realized that a woman was a giyores from innocently persuing the kesuba on her living room wall.
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