I really want to understand

amother

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 5:23 pm

lubavitch always tried to go lifnim meshuras hadin and take upon chumras, because they believe we should serve hashem with joy and serve hashem in the best possible way.

healthymama

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 8:56 pm

Quote:

For example, how would you answer these questions?

1. Why did Hashem create the world?
A) to give Bnei Yisroel the Torah.
B) because he wanted a dwelling place down here.

2. Why do we keep Torah and Mitzvos?
A) to get sechar in Olam Haba.
B) to bring Moshiach.

3. Why do bad things happen to people?
A) because Hashem wants to punish them.
B) we dont exactly know, but everything is part of Hashem's plan and for the best.

Quote:

in short:
musar is about self-improvement
chasidus is about G-d

GR, Motek, I am sorry if I will offend you by saying this. But the choices in these questions (and the summary of mussar) seem to me to subtly portray non chabad people as if they are selfish and looking to do mitzvos just for themselves. Afterall, I am guessing that you would expect a non lubavitcher to answer that Hashem created the world to give Bnei Yisroel the Torah and that everyone does mitzvos to get sechar and that bad things happen to punish people so they should avoid sin so as not to get punished. I think this is an overly simplified view of their hashkafa. Please don't be mad at me for writing this, I was going to post this anonymously but decided to be brave. Sorry.

ceo

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 9:01 pm

amother wrote:

lubavitch always tried to go lifnim meshuras hadin and take upon chumras, because they believe we should serve hashem with joy and serve hashem in the best possible way.

I don't understand the connection here...what do taking on chumros have to do with "Ivdu Es Hashem B'Simcha?" Everyone believes in "Ivdu es Hashem B'simcha!" It's not a lubavitch or chassidishe thing!

Is it possible that the amother who wrote this is not Lubavitch and does not have clarity on this subject?

red sea

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 9:03 pm

Quote:

many of the debates and stuff stem from this, if someone tries to explain chassidus with a quote "chassidus is x y & z " non chassidic might get highly offended cuz "how can you say that?! that is what we stand for and part of our torah too, its not exclusive to you",

and I quote myself, see what I mean, here we go again..............

Crayon210

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 9:24 pm

healthymama wrote:

Quote:

in short:
musar is about self-improvement
chasidus is about G-d

This might seem oversimplified, but it's true! Have you ever studied Mussar or Chassidus? Mussar is about how man self-improves, while Chassidus is the study of what Gd is. They are totally different things, serve totally different functions, and no one said one is better than the other. All Motek did was point out that they're different.

Why is self-improvement selfish? Confused

gryp

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 9:53 pm

Quote:

Please don't be mad at me for writing this, I was going to post this anonymously but decided to be brave. Sorry

healthymama, you wrote a very nice thought-out post, and you bring up a good point.
(I dont think you should be very worried about me getting upset Wink

)

Quote:

Afterall, I am guessing that you would expect a non lubavitcher to answer that Hashem created the world to give Bnei Yisroel the Torah and that everyone does mitzvos to get sechar and that bad things happen to punish people so they should avoid sin so as not to get punished. I think this is an overly simplified view of their hashkafa.

I hear you, and you may be right, but it still stands that these hashkafos are emphasized. youre right that I didnt write out the entire hashkafa so it can be misleading, I just really tried to give as brief answers to the questions as possible.
the truth is, that the point of the questions is that all the answers all correct, none of them can be discounted.
we wouldn't say that Lubavitchers would discount the answers they wouldnt choose as being false, so its the same the other way around too.

Motek can answer for herself (no doubt Smile

) but thats another interesting point. Chasidus shows us that there is absolutely nothing in this world except for G-dliness, like it says "Ata Har'esa Ladaas Ki Hashem Hu Ha'Elokim, Ein Od Milvado."
Every single thing in the world is G-dliness, including us, including every single object you see around you. We are just plain nothings, there is no substance to us or anything physical.
A contradiction to the pisgam "Bishvili Nivra Ha'Olam" ("For me the world was created") but that is a seperate discussion.

Don't ask me about Mussar, I have no real idea, but I was under the impression that it is about improving your character traits, like Motek said.

In the stories of old, the difference here between the way the Chasidim behaved in this regard and how the others did was so great it was easily recognizable. If you are asking "What Chasidim?" then you are starting to understand. Very Happy

If you want I can tell you a few of these stories, that most people would laugh at, because this concept has become so widespread.

A personal story I dont know yet if I want to share Confused

but I guess ill just jump in and see what happens:
More than a few years ago when I was in sem but away for Shabbos, I was sitting around with a much-older-than-I (not Lubavitch) lady in Bnei Brak, talking about issues between Lubavitch and not-Lubavitch.
How did this all come up? Well, over Shabbos, her teenage daughter kept making wondering remarks at me about things I did. If I did anything "frum" she said to me in surprise: "Oh why are you even bothering to do that? Youre kids arent going to be frum one day." shock

or she commented on my Chitas with remarks that made me wonder where she was getting all of this from.
So when the house had quieted down, I "confronted" the mother, and asked where does her daughter get this all from???? She answered that she gets it from school from the teachers, and although she herself doesnt agree with these "hashkafos," this school is the best in the neighborhood so she sends there.
so this is how we got to talking about these types of issues, and the lady was asking me many many questions which I tried to answer, and we were having a nice discussion... until she asked me:
"Do you feel that this derech is right for YOU?"
and I'll admit that although I felt like a fool for not understanding her, I had not a clue what she was talking about.
So she asked me again, "do you feel this derech is right for you?" and must have seen my blank face because she started explaining: "You know, if you feel like you are really serving Hashem in the way that is right for yourself, you are in touch with it, you feel that this is the right way."
I started to understand what she was asking, although she might as well have asked me if I know how deep the Atlantic Ocean is. I wanted to scream, "Right for ME? who cares what right for ME? what do I have to do with it?"
But instead I calmly explained to her that we see things a bit differently in Chabad. We know Moshiach is coming, and Chasidus has to be dispersed everywhere for that to happen.
Simple as that. We have our work and have to do it, end of story. The only ME that is involved is the one that needs to do what she needs to do.
So she gave me a funny look and told me she understands.
I should end the story by saying that the mother I spoke to is not in the least bit an ignoramus. the family is considered a "Choshuv" one. but the differences in our hashkafa are... different.

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 9:55 pm

On the difference between Mussar and Chassidus:

There are two aspects in Avodas Hashem. Sur MeRa Remove oneself from evil,
[I]Sur mera also includes removing oneself from neglecting to do the positive mitzvos, and one is therefore motivatedfor doing good.

Va'Aseh Tov[/I], do good, that is that his main involvement is "Aseh Tov", and automatically he has no connection to evil.

Toras haMussar is mainly the path of Sur Mera, it stresses how "it is bad and bitter, your leaving Hashem your G-d"(Yirmiyah 2:19) and how the "left side", the yetzer hora is not good; Toras HaMussar pushes away the bad in a manner of "Remove yourself", through fasting, and self- mortification ( for penance).

Toras Hachassidus, on the other hand, is involved mainly in meditation upon the good, explaining the pleasantness in G-dliness, the greatness and sweetness of the Neshama. And when the person senses this, he automatically has no connection to evil.

There is a mashal about this difference: When a thief comes into a house, there are two ways to chase him out 1) to shout, and scare him away, but he is liable to come back, when his fear subsides, or when the screaming stops, or he becomes accustomed to it
2) To grab the thief, and even better, to bring him back to teshuva.

(from sichos of the Rebbe)

sarahd

Tue, Aug 08 2006, 6:57 am

SaraYehudis wrote:

Toras HaMussar pushes away the bad in a manner of "Remove yourself", through fasting, and self- mortification ( for penance).

I believe that many chassidim (certainly early ones) also engaged in sigufim, meaning that I think there are aspects common to both Mussar and Chassidus.

shalhevet

Tue, Aug 08 2006, 7:38 am

Quote:

Toras HaMussar pushes away the bad in a manner of "Remove yourself", through fasting, and self- mortification ( for penance).

This is not true at all.

Mussar is about working on yourself to be a better Jew in both "sur me'ra" and certainly "asei tov".
If you don't believe me then go and read basic mussar books like "Mesilas Yesharim" (The Path of the Just). I would also recommend books like "The Masgiach" (Feldheim) about Rov Meir Chadash to get some idea as to how great mussar personalities lived their lives.

I am surprised at you writing with great conviction about a topic that you have obviously not studied at all. Mussar is an extremely positive view of improving ourselves. I doubt that there are many people today who engage in self-mortification.

TzenaRena

Tue, Aug 08 2006, 12:15 pm

I actually didn't write anything of my own in that post. It was a quote from Sefer HaChassidus (only part of it) taken from Sichos of the Rebbe, who is certainly familiar with both Mussar and Chassidus. (the sicha is printed in Likkutei sichos vol.2 473 and on, and refers to a sicha from the Previous Rebbe 7th of Pesach 5696.)

Certainly Mussar has undergone a transformation from earlier days, in which visiting Maggidim would preach to the unsuspecting Jews of the shtetlach and portray the fire and brimstone of Gehinom and punishment that awaited them, and the congregation would break out in weeping and wailing. Especially after the advent of Chassidus, the approach of Mussar acquired a much softer character, and much of this was from the influence Chassidus.

In sefer HasSichos 5702:
After the catastrophic failure of the tough and angry "Maggidim" , the Geonim and leaders of Jewry who were opposed to Chassidus, wanted to raise the path of Mussar and create in the eyes Klall Yisrael the true idea that Mussar awakens one to the service of the Creator Blessed be He, and that everyone, even the great Geonim and Tzaddikim, need Mussar for the Service of Hashem, they undertook the establishment the group of "Mochichim".

The Mochichim excelled in their gentle approach and their beautiful ideas, such as the Dubna Maggid with his ingenious mesholim which fit each inyan he spoke about..

The path of Mussar occupied an important place by the greatest Geonim. Especially after the Vilner Gaon called the Dubner Maggid to come say Mussar for him - the idea of "hochacha" became the greatest component of Service of the Creator.

Years later, Mussar again acquired its fiery semblance, speaking broadly of the punishment of evildoers and the reward for tzaddikim, but without curses, and without humiliation.

The Kelmer Maggid took an active role in this field in Mussar, with his extraordinary talent in preaching, and gifted tongue.

When the Kelmer Maggid would describe the Gehinnom and the Gan Eden, and protray the 7 chambers of Gehinnom.... a great fear would descend upon all, and they would cry and wail.

Especially when he would portray the terrible pains and heartbreaking cries of the simple people, then a hue and cry would rise from the congregation - and many would faint from great fright.

When the Maggid of Kelm would describe with "his mouth which uttered pearls" the Gan Eden......the listeners would be overtaken by an extraordinary joy...it would call forth by them great arousal in Yiras Shomayim.

So the evolvement of the Toras HaMussar occurred from generation to generation till certain Sages of Mussar began to make use of Chassidic thoughts, they brought the Tanya into the Mussar seforim case, and many Geonim, masters of Mussar used the ideas , explanations and divrei hisorerus in their drashos and talks in their centers of Mussar in the great Yeshivos.

And after that they still ask: What has Chassidus accomplished over Mussar..

When someone who is involved with mussar still asks this today, it is a pronounced sign how much the Torah of Mussar has affected him. When one sees a talmid of the Yeshiva Tomchei Temimi of Chabad, with his appearance and his conduct with Yiras Shomayim it is superfluous to explain truly what did Chassidus accomplish and innovate.

Chassidus makes alive the strong Jewish faith in Hashem, the Love of Torah and observance of Mitzvos, and the most exalted midah of Ahavas Yisrael, which is accompanied with the strength of mind of "No matter what, I am always a Jew in every place and every moment".

The question today, what did Chassidus accomplish,m or in the new style "Why do we need to learn Chassidus when we have Mussar" is in actuality an expression of hatred which comes from the aftergrowth of the seeds of a muddy well (source)."

Motek

Tue, Aug 08 2006, 12:21 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

And B) it doesn't say anywhere]

Are you discounting the Chofetz Chaim? shock

You made the same point in this thread:

need lots of neshomos for moshiach to come? pls explain (intellectual section) and were shown to be wrong

please reread as there is no reason to repost

Motek

Tue, Aug 08 2006, 12:23 pm

healthymama wrote:

See the thread referred to earlier on what is a chassidic woman, don't want to repost what I wrote there.

Motek

Tue, Aug 08 2006, 12:26 pm

sarahd wrote:

I believe that many chassidim (certainly early ones) also engaged in sigufim, meaning that I think there are aspects common to both Mussar and Chassidus.

The reason that they engaged in sigufim was not the same. Outwardly similar, entirely different purpose.

One of the Baal Shem Tov's teachings is:

Quote:

It is written: "When you will see the donkey of your enemy collapsing under its burden, and you are inclined to refrain from aiding him, you shall nevertheless aid him" (Exodus 23:5).

The Baal Shem Tov applied this instruction to the body and the material self (chamor, "donkey", also means "materiality"). Initially - the Torah is saying - you may see your body as your enemy, resisting your soul's objectives, collapsing under the "burden" of the mitzvot.

You may therefore be inclined to fight the body by denying its needs and mortifying it. Says the Torah: You must aid your soul's "enemy". Purify the body, refine it, do not break it.

shalhevet

Tue, Aug 08 2006, 12:26 pm

SaraYehudis, you have no idea what mussar is. In the Torah world tzaddikim come into being by people working on themselves, and one of the ways to do this is through mussar. (For those who think everyone can become a tzaddik and that people are not born that way.)

And go look up when Mesilas Yesharim was written.

Motek

Sun, Oct 22 2006, 6:31 pm

Don't think this was mentioned earlier - about weddings. At non-Lubavitch weddings I've been to, the chasan is escorted to the kalla for the badeken with lively music (and singing and dancing by his friends) whereas in Lubavitch, the mood is very serious and the men sing the Alter Rebbe's Dalet Bavos (which is also the niggun played at all chupas).

sarahd

Mon, Oct 23 2006, 5:13 am

I'm not sure if lively music is a non-Lubavitch custom or just American. Here in Europe, there's either no music or slow tune. My husband was quite bewildered at our badeken when he was escorted in to the strains of "Od Yishama". ("What, is the chupah over already and I missed the whole thing?!?" LOL

)