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Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:06 pm

red sea wrote:

Ok motek, I read youre links and posted on those threads, but my personal conclusion is that if anyone thinks the 2 ways are day and night they gotta ........................re-examine the topic imho. (better Wink

Well considering that you posted a little further back:

Quote:

I fully believe that I cannot really or fully "get" it, its not the way my head works

that's understandable! Smile

The two approaches are actually day and night in many significant ways.

Since you love the hands-on differences, well then, enjoy!

Crayon210

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:06 pm

red sea, I don't think that's fair. If there are inaccuracies, why can't Motek point them out?

red sea

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:07 pm

So, I'll start getting back on track, so about those ovens...................................................... Smile

Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:08 pm

I am sorry that you ceo, find this part of the discussion antagonistic. I reread what I wrote to check to see if there was something I should edit, and I don't see anything offensive.

Although I find it disturbing to have Chasidus reduced to something superficial (talking about those who try to explain what it is) and find certain historical and factual distortions annoying, I do try to stick to the facts.

Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:09 pm

red sea wrote:

So, I'll start getting back on track, so about those ovens...................................................... Smile

I'm in favor of them! 8)

red sea

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:10 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

red sea, I don't think that's fair. If there are inaccuracies, why can't Motek point them out?

she can, I'm not exactly really a boss here, but since there are SO many other threads to do that on and if it starts here, all the softer spoken, I like it calm people will run away.....................................

Crayon210

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:12 pm

So we should just leave inaccuracies? Doesn't that defeat the point of this?

red sea

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:17 pm

well we can put in a post here with a link to the other thread that motek mentioned and say for all corrections and accuracy on hashkafa click here -- and now back to the regularly scheduled discussion Question

gryp

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:48 pm

Quote:

and although the Gemara tells that story of the two roads, I don't think it relates to what we are discussing here.

thats strange. Confused

I learned that in school many times.

Crayon210

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 9:52 pm

red sea, I think that's dishonest to the whole discussion. If something's inaccurate, you shouldn't have to point to a thread (what if there isn't one?), a person should just post the correct info!

gryp

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 10:24 pm

Quote:

as per ceo and my taste lets try to keep this thread mostly hashkafa free and stick to the interesting basics so it doesn't go straight down the tubes please.

to keep this thread argument-free, it must stick to only the minhagim. although some of those can be very controversial (until you learn about them properly), the real controversy is about the hashkafa.

but then you say that the two derachim arent so different. outwardly, perhaps not on a superficial glance, especially since Chasidish attitudes has influenced much of the frum world.

if you read stories about how it used to be back in Europe, you would see the differences right away, and which communities have been greatly influenced by Chasidim, and which have only been influenced slightly.

ceo

Fri, Aug 04 2006, 12:29 am

Sigh.

First off, I changed my mind and decided to snoop here and see. I didn't say that anyone was being offensive.

This is a side note to the main point of the discusision: if you re-read what I wrote, I did say that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was one of the first to encourage kiruv in mass efforts. I did not say that R' Shrage Feivel or the Rebbe of Kapishnitz were doing the same work in the same amounts. I think it's a real shame that most non-Chabad institutions don't acknowledege that. (The fact that they do does not negate what non-Lubavitchers have done). But, that's not the point of the discussion.

My whole point is simply: there are a lot of things that Lubavitchers do that others do also. That's all. I honestly think that a lot of non-Lubavitchers get a bit insulted, for instance, when certain things are said in the name of Chabad/Lubavitch. Truth be told, it's a bit silly to be insulted by things said on a internet board, but it happens. For instance, when I read a thread that says something like, "My job as a Lubavitch woman is to run my house, take care of my children, and do chesed projects outside my house as well," call it silly, but I get insulted. What, just because I'm not chabad, I don't do chesed projects outside my house? I hope I am explaining my view clearly.

The truth is, I think this whole thread is kind of silly. Number one, practically speaking, the Jewish world is not divided into two groups: Lubavitch and non-Lubavitch. So how can a thread like this be accurate? There are million different ways people can do things. Second, I don't really think a thread outlining our differences is productive.

Anyway, that's really it for me on this thread. I have a lot of work to do for Monday, plus I told my new Lubavitch Wink

neighbor I would help her find a pediatrician.
GR, if you are interested in my husbands background and his interest in chassidus, you can PM me. It's quite an interesting story--- especially when some very choshuve people from Neturei Karta showed up at my chassuna. LOL

TzenaRena

Fri, Aug 04 2006, 1:04 am

mummyof6 wrote:

So either we're closet Lub or you're closet Litvish LOL

Mummyof6 you have no idea how close you are. In the zmanim for example the GRA and the Alter Rebbe hold the same, for Tzes HaKochavim, zman Krias Shema.

If not for the baseless and fabricated slander that unscrupulous individuals said in those times about the Chassidim, and unfortunately was instrumental in the decision of the GRA not to meet with their leaders, there would never have been hostility between the two camps.

The Alter Rebbe called the GRA "the Gaon and Chossid", and did not allow his Chassidim,- although they suffered unbearable persecution from the opponents of Chassidus - to speak against him.

For the fascinating story of how the GRA's talmid, the Gaon Rabbi Boruch Mordechai of Bobroisk became a chossid of the Alter Rebbe, and tried to get the GRA to agree to meeting the Alter Rebbe, see Sefer HaSichos of 5702 of the Previous Rebbe, pgs. 37-40.

There was a question that was troubling the sharpest minds at that time, and no one had an answer. The Alter Rebbe answered this question, and when R. Boruch Mordechai repeated this answer to the Gaon, the GRA who was sitting in Tallis and tefillin stood up with great excitement and exclaimed: "Such answers could only only be said by the Resh Mesivta D'rakiah!(head of the Heavenly Academy), and if a Gaon a Tzaddik said this, he knows it through Ruach haKodesh. If I would hear it from the Gaon and Tzaddik himself, I would say as R. Yochanan said "I would carry his clothes for him to the bathhouse."(Eruvin27:b)

He then demanded to know where R. Boruch M. heard this answer, but R. Boruch M. remained silent. Later he regretted this profoundly.

later, when the Gaon decreed that the Tanya should be burnt, although it was known already that he was from the Adas HaChassidim, R. Boruch M. still had access to the Gaon, and he reminded him of the question and answer that he had been so impressed with, and said the answers were from the AlterRebbe. At that point however, the machlokes had intensified, and the Gaon said that R. BM. could not be believed, since he has an interest in the matter.

gryp

Fri, Aug 04 2006, 1:02 pm

Quote:

GR, if you are interested in my husbands background and his interest in chassidus, you can PM me.

Thanx! I considered doing that but didnt know if you minded.

Quote:

My whole point is simply: there are a lot of things that Lubavitchers do that others do also. That's all.

and youre right.
but it has to do with what each group emphasizes.

For example, how would you answer these questions?

1. Why did Hashem create the world?
A) to give Bnei Yisroel the Torah.
B) because he wanted a dwelling place down here.

2. Why do we keep Torah and Mitzvos?
A) to get sechar in Olam Haba.
B) to bring Moshiach.

3. Why do bad things happen to people?
A) because Hashem wants to punish them.
B) we dont exactly know, but everything is part of Hashem's plan and for the best.

healthymama

Fri, Aug 04 2006, 1:27 pm

I think it's so wonderful how we are all different and similar too ! Keep up the posts !

sarahd

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 6:43 am

Motek wrote:

re the tallis, the silver addition is an atara
the Lubavitch tallis doesn't even have the non-silver atara, it's just plain

Really? So how do the men know which side of the tallis is supposed to go on their head? I'm not asking to be facetious; the tallis must be worn with the same side on the head always. That's the reason why talleisim have ataros.

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 6:55 am

GR wrote:

2. Why do we keep Torah and Mitzvos?
A) to get sechar in Olam Haba.
B) to bring Moshiach.

Well, these two answers are both wrong. What about
C) To fulfill Hashem's Will.

[A) It says in Pirkei Avos that we shouldn't be like servants who serve their master in order to get a reward.
And B) it doesn't say anywhere]

sarahd

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 7:26 am

IMHO this question also has a C) answer.

Quote:

1. Why did Hashem create the world?
A) to give Bnei Yisroel the Torah.
B) because he wanted a dwelling place down here.

I've always known that Hashem created the world in order "leheitiv im briosov" - to do good for His creations.

As far as #3, does anyone dispute that both answers are correct? We don't know why Hashem chooses to do "bad" to someone, but certainly sometimes it must be a punishment for bad things they did. We just don't often know when it is. But it's one of the 13 Ikrei Emunah to believe that Hashem does good to those who keep His mitzvos and punishes those who don't.

gryp

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 9:05 am

Quote:

Really? So how do the men know which side of the tallis is supposed to go on their head?

it has just a plain white part for the top.

Quote:

As far as #3, does anyone dispute that both answers are correct?

that was the point of me posting these questions.
nobody would say that any of the answers are exactly wrong (sorry they didnt come out exactly right either, im not very well-versed in different hashkafas, but the point still stands) but that they are flip-sides of each other. the point is what part do you emphasize daily in your avodas Hashem, and the answer depends on what you yourself were taught.

gryp

Mon, Aug 07 2006, 9:07 am

Quote:

We don't know why Hashem chooses to do "bad" to someone, but certainly sometimes it must be a punishment for bad things they did. We just don't often know when it is. But it's one of the 13 Ikrei Emunah to believe that Hashem does good to those who keep His mitzvos and punishes those who don't.

theres no disagreement about that.

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