I really want to understand

mushmom

Wed, Aug 02 2006, 11:23 pm

I dont know if anyone has said this already, but I think the major thing that distinguishes Lubavitch from other frum groups is very basic: Chassidus. Chassidus is an entirely new dimesnion of the Torah that offers a very distinct world outlook. The Rebbe's chassidus in particular is especially unique. Im not an authority to go into it in depth, but here's an example: an old "Chassidishe vort" says, "Chassidus is G-dly wisdom that shows a person how small he is and how great he can become" (Hayom Yom) Brouhgt down practically, this teaching means that Luabvitchers will particularly oppose haughtiness in any form- even for kavod hatorah- and strive (ideally) for an extremely high level of personal developement- conquering one's middos and changing your very self etc. There's a lot more but that's just a small example.

The Rebbe's Chassidus takes everything one step further and makes it your (his Chassidim, but really the entire world, as we consider the Rebbe's message to be relevant to all Jews) mission to be m'saken the world and bring Moshiach. So for example, while a litvishe person may go into "kiruv" (as mentioned this is not a term used at all in lubavitch) because he feels inspired by it, or has oratory talents or whatever, for a lubavitcher, this is what a jew (who was fortunate to have been tuahgt torah) must do- it's not an addition its more like the main thing.
(This is clarified very well in a book by Faitel Levin called Heaven on Earth- its pretty lengthy (I never managed to read every chapter) but the last chapter sums it up very well and explains the Rebbe's theology and outlook very succintly. If you truly want to understand what's behind Luabvitch, it's a good thing to read.)

Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 3:24 pm

Thank you for that post.

I was wondering whether red sea was really interested in an in depth discussion about ovens or really wanted to know what Lubavitch is about.

As page after page of this thread filled up with posts that had nothing to do with what Lubavitch is really about, I wondered why people find this thread so "beautiful."

I also wonder red sea, whether you read the threads I referred you to.

red sea

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 5:42 pm

Motek, I did not get around to reading the links yet,

but I actually was more interested in the practicality and concrete issues of what people do, and also curious why is it that many many threads turn into such heated debates and bashing, to see in fact is lubav so different? So yes I guess I am more interested in the ovens, I find the differences in minhagim very interesting,

and so far I see we are not that different

just where in the non chassidic -few take on many chumras, it is common place among chassidim to be so machmir.

but I think it IS beautiful, like someone said earlier that we are actually 5 pages into a thread and we are all still "behaving" Wink

.

As far as the spiritual dimension,

my dh informed me and I fully believe that I cannot really or fully "get" it, its not the way my head works.

While I can academically understand it, there seems to be 2 different plains of spirituality one in chassidus and one for not chassidic, like 2 roads that lead to the same place.

I think it would be a very talented person who has a great command and talent with words, and also is capable of having both mindsets to explain the different mindsets to the other.

I think that many of the debates and stuff stem from this, if someone tries to explain chassidus with a quote "chassidus is x y & z " non chassidic might get highly offended cuz "how can you say that?! that is what we stand for and part of our torah too, its not exclusive to you",

also we might get side tracked with wanting to believe that we are doing the right thing and forget that there are 70 panim latorah and 2 opposites are still both correct.

or is it better explained (with a mashal of school) that while were all in the " same program" different groups within the frum world are just focusing on a different "track" that has a sub-focus, so to speak.

So what do you think of the mashal I made up ? is this what is so different? (the first question I asked)cuz so far from all the posts that is what I understand is the biggest difference.

(I'm notorious for having no patience for mishalim and always want e/o to get to the point, I can't believe I just gave one shock

)

Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 6:06 pm

red sea wrote:

like someone said earlier that we are actually 5 pages into a thread and we are all still "behaving" Wink

Nice but not at all surprising when the discussion is not about ideology.

Quote:

So what do you think of the mashal I made up ? is this what is so different? (the first question I asked)cuz so far from all the posts that is what I understand is the biggest difference.

I think your analogy and questions and comments are addressed in the "chassidic woman" thread I referred you to so I'm not going to repeat what I wrote there! Smile

gryp

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 6:08 pm

red sea

, you originally asked about minhagim.

there are some very different minhagim we have, but thats not what causes differences or arguments on the forum!

but if youre talking about the hashkafa, attitudes, spirituality, etc., well thats a whole different story, and of course its hard to understand someone else's! and thats where the confusion starts.

btw, there is already a famous mashal: the long short road, and the short long road, both going the same place.

red sea

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 6:38 pm

Quote:

red sea

, you originally asked about minhagim.

yeah, I know, I find that part more interesting than ideology Smile

Quote:

btw, there is already a famous mashal: the long short road, and the short long road, both going the same place.

but isnt that where some of the arguing starts? we all want to think were on the better of the 2 roads? I think my made up one makes more sense in my own head tho, cuz you still have e/t but you choose youre focus, with the 2 paths it feels like they are not the same cuz one is short and one is long. But then again, Ive always had my own way of thinking Very Happy

But GR I love reading e/t you posted.

Motek, I'm off to read the stuff you linked.

gryp

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 6:54 pm

Quote:

we all want to think were on the better of the 2 roads? I think my made up one makes more sense in my own head tho, cuz you still have e/t but you choose youre focus, with the 2 paths it feels like they are not the same cuz one is short and one is long.

so which one do you think is better? which one do you want to be on? Wink

and Thanx for the nice compliment.

Crayon, I would, but perhaps there are volunteers out there that would like to do it instead?
I havent read it recently, and I prefer not to rely on my memory or ill end up embarrassed

Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 7:03 pm

How do Chasidim observe Tisha B'Av? This is a story that the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe recounted:

The Holy Ruzhiner (Chassidic master Rabbi Israel of Ruzhin, 1797-1851) rejected all feelings of sadness, even of bitterness.1 So his chassidim would engage in all sorts of practical jokes on the Ninth of Av (in order to mitigate the sadness of the day). They would throw burrs at each other. Then they conceived of the following prank: they opened a skylight in the roof of the study hall and dropped a snare; when someone walked into the study hall, they would yank on the rope so that the snare fastened itself around him, and pull him up to the roof.

for the rest of the story:

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....49589

Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 7:06 pm

red sea wrote:

there seems to be 2 different plains of spirituality one in chassidus and one for not chassidic, like 2 roads that lead to the same place.

The revelation of Chasidus was not needed if another road led to the same place already.

Quote:

also we might get side tracked with wanting to believe that we are doing the right thing and forget that there are 70 panim latorah and 2 opposites are still both correct.

The revelation of Chasidus is not one of the 70 panim of Torah.

but again, that other thread explains this at length and although the Gemara tells that story of the two roads, I don't think it relates to what we are discussing here.

bandcm

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 7:15 pm

Why can't you finish the story, Motek? I hate going to links and I'm sure others do to.
So here is the rest:
Well, the chassidim were having a grand old time catching people in their contraption. Every time they caught someone, they pulled him up to the ladies balcony and had a good laugh.
Until... they were pulling up their latest catch, and they nearly dropped him back down in fright!
It was the Rebbe himself! embarrassed

And what did the Rizhiner do?
He looked up to Heaven and said,
"Aibishter, if You don't like the way Your children are keeping this fast day of Tisha b'Av, just take it away from them!"

Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 7:19 pm

bandcm wrote:

Why can't you finish the story, Motek? I hate going to links and I'm sure others do to.

I would be happy to post the whole thing.

The reason I don't is because this website as well as many (most) others, do not allow you to copy their material without permission.

They don't say, you can copy it if you include the author and the website.

If someone wants to contact some websites and ask them whether including the name of their website makes it okay to copy, let us know what you find out.

ceo

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 8:22 pm

mushmom wrote:

I dont know if anyone has said this already, but I think the major thing that distinguishes Lubavitch from other frum groups is very basic: Chassidus.

I don't think this is correct. Lots of other people/groups besides Lubavitch (and my husband Wink

) learn Chassidus.

Quote:

Brouhgt down practically, this teaching means that Luabvitchers will particularly oppose haughtiness in any form- even for kavod hatorah- and strive (ideally) for an extremely high level of personal developement- conquering one's middos and changing your very self etc. There's a lot more but that's just a small example.

Likvaks learn Mussar. Diffenent derech, same goal. Litvaks also oppose haughtiness, some of the stories of gedolim, such as R'Shlomo Zalman illustrate this.

Quote:

So for example, while a litvishe person may go into "kiruv" (as mentioned this is not a term used at all in lubavitch) because he feels inspired by it, or has oratory talents or whatever, for a lubavitcher, this is what a jew (who was fortunate to have been tuahgt torah) must do- it's not an addition its more like the main thing.)

Well, most gedolim in the litvishe olam will also say that there is an OBLIGATION to do kiruv ( just using this word, even though I know that Lubavitchers may not use it). While not everyone is a "kiruv professional," most poskim say that everyone has an obligation to teach/reach out to others.

What I was saying before- I don;t think that anyone is DENYING that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the first encourage large scale kiruv or some of the other campaigns that were mentioned, I was just saying that there are a lot of things that are not exclusively Lubavitch (ie- outreach, certain minhagim, etc). While the Lubavitcher Rebbe was one of the first to encourage certain activities on a large scale, he was not the only only one in general. go read an Artscroll book about Jews in B"lyn in the 30s and 40s, see what Torah V'Daas and R' Shraga Feivel zt"l were doing. Go read about what the Kapishnitzer Rebbe zy'a was doing on the Lower East Side in those days.

Motek

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 8:34 pm

ceo wrote:

I don't think this is correct. Lots of other people/groups besides Lubavitch (and my husband Wink

) learn Chassidus.

Is it included as a major part of any other group's curriculum? No. And this was discussed in the "chasidic woman" thread. Please could people read that thread? A lot of time and effort was put into it ...

Quote:

Likvaks learn Mussar. Diffenent derech, same goal.

completely different goals

in short:
musar is about self-improvement
chasidus is about G-d

more on this in the other thread

Quote:

While not everyone is a "kiruv professional," most poskim say that everyone has an obligation to teach/reach out to others.

Poskim? Please refer to any posek's psak halacha on this.

Practically speaking, the majority of frum people do not see it as their obligation to reach out and teach others. The film "Inspired" was heavily pushed in frum areas in order to wake people up and no poskim were quoted.

Quote:

While the Lubavitcher Rebbe was one of the first to encourage certain activities on a large scale, he was not the only only one in general. go read an Artscroll book about Jews in B"lyn in the 30s and 40s, see what Torah V'Daas and R' Shraga Feivel zt"l were doing. Go read about what the Kapishnitzer Rebbe zy'a was doing on the Lower East Side in those days.

See the Historical Revisionism at Chabad's Expense thread in the Intell. section for a refutation of this claim.

The two great people you mentioned did NOT call on people to undertake a kiruv campaign. The Lubavitcher Rebbe did, and he was MOCKED by the frum world, Chasidim and non-chasidim.

red sea

Thu, Aug 03 2006, 8:47 pm

Ok motek, I read youre links and posted on those threads, but my personal conclusion is that if anyone thinks the 2 ways are day and night they gotta ........................re-examine the topic imho. (better Wink

?)

There are differences and there may be a choice few things that we feel are just too way out there about each other (giving a small consession here just to make it more legit) but come on, its not night and day, its more like bedtime and midnight.

And I love learning about the actual physical and hands on differences more than all the lofty thought differences. 8)